Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I attack with a hero.

Opponent uses Philistine Outpost to Search discard pile for an evil character and blocks with the searched evil character.

Rescuer Plays Helmet of Salvation.

Is Philistine outpost negated? If so what happens to the evil character in battle. What if the evil character is immune to the hero (Philistine Garrison)?

Philistine Outpost
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks. • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Samuel 14:12 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Helmet of Salvation (Kings)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate all evil search abilities. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ephesians 6:17 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Ultra Rare)

I attack with a hero.

Opponent uses Philistine Outpost to Search discard pile for an evil character and blocks with the searched evil character.

Rescuer Plays Helmet of Salvation.

Is Philistine outpost negated? If so what happens to the evil character in battle. What if the evil character is immune to the hero (Philistine Garrison)?

Philistine Outpost
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks. • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Samuel 14:12 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Helmet of Salvation (Kings)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate all evil search abilities. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ephesians 6:17 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Ultra Rare)

I agree with Alex that the fort is negated.  If the Caracter is immune however I don't believe he goes out of battle for the same logic used if you play obedience of Noah against an immune character.

This question was brought up, but with Cymbals of the Levites instead. I'm pretty sure it was ruled that the Philistine goes back to the draw pile.

That is also my leanings. I believe he would go back because you are not targeting him, you are targeting the fortress.

Dove is still directly targeting the character for discard.

Helmet/Cymbals are negating the card that allowed the character to enter play in the first place.

Hey,

I attack with a hero.

Opponent uses Philistine Outpost to Search discard pile for an evil character and blocks with the searched evil character.

Rescuer Plays Helmet of Salvation.

Is Philistine outpost negated? If so what happens to the evil character in battle. What if the evil character is immune to the hero (Philistine Garrison)?

Philistine Outpost is negated.  The evil character is returned to where it came from (even if it is immune).  Since the net result on the blocking evil character is that it is being removed from battle the defender would have the opportunity to negate Helmet of Salvation, if they don't (and if they don't do something else like Unknown Nation or Unholy Writ to extend the battle) it would result in a successful rescue.

so the question is does immunity protect from indirect effect from a source it is immune to.

No it doesn't.  Also worth noting, immunity never protects from negate or interrupt abilities, and since that's what Helmet of Salvation is, immunity can't protect against it ever.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Since the net result removes philistine garrison from battle (and you are doing nothing to negate the immunity only removing him from battle) you are forcing a character who is immune out of battle... That doesn't make sense to me.

Really we don't time travel? I thought it was ruled in the jacob+captain tfg situation that captain never entered battle and that was the reason the battle field was not btn.

I disagree on Redemptions defenition for immunity but I will let it be for now.

Really we don't time travel? I thought it was ruled in the jacob+captain tfg situation that captain never entered battle and that was the reason the battle field was not btn.

Good question.

Negates undo an effect.  So you do everything you can to undo abilities.

So in the case of Jacob + Captain blocked by 12 Fingered Giant the negate negates Jacobs banding ability, which then undoes the FBTN

In the case of Maharia (wa) to Ira (wa) the negating of Maharia's ability would send Ira back which would cause it to be not BTN but because that would cause an infinite loop it was rule that in that case only BTN sticks.

In the case of Philistine Outpost pulling out Philistine Garrison you are negating the search for the Garrison, so to undo that you have to put Garrison back into the discard pile, Immunity doesn't matter because you aren't targeting Garrison and even if you were Immunity doesn't affect negates.  And the reason why you can't reblock is because its already past that point and negates don't go back phases they just cascade to other abilities.

So the moral of the story is negates are awesome but they don't time travel

So in the case of Jacob + Captain blocked by 12 Fingered Giant the negate negates Jacobs banding ability, which then undoes the FBTN

This still seems to contradict all Redemption knowledge that I possess.  Similar situation:

I make a RA with Claudia banded to Peter.  Opponent blocks with a little black character and plays Wrath of Satan.  I then play Walking on Water to become immune.  If my opponent plays flight to negate banding, Claudia is still immune even though the enhancement is gone (or so I thought).

Granted this is not the same, but I tried my best to think of a similar situation when a character provides an ongoing ability that effects the entire battle...

Can someone please address this?

Tim has already explained this well so I'm not going to try to repeat what he's said:

(1) We don't time travel in Redemption.  They blocked with a philistine, a negate can't undo the fact that that happened.  All a negate does is send things back to how they were, it doesn't mess with space/time.

(2)  Once Helmet of Salvation is played you're past the "present a blocker" stage of battle and into the "determine initiative play an enhancement" part.  It's too late at that point to present a blocker because we don't backtrack stages (that's why choose the blocker before the "present a blocker" stage is becoming Cannot be Interrupted).