Author Topic: Helmet of Brass and The Golden Censer (Read 6515 times)

Korunks · « **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:30:27 AM »

The Score:

One elder for TGC as a battle winner

One elder against TGC as a battle winner

I believe that now the elders confer amongst themselves and return to us with a ruling.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:48:49 PM »

I am for battle winner XD

Korunks · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2010, 10:52:09 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on October 18, 2010, 09:48:49 PM

I am for battle winner XD

Me too, which means it probably wont happen.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2010, 10:05:00 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on October 18, 2010, 10:52:09 PM

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on October 18, 2010, 09:48:49 PM
I am for battle winner XD

Me too, which means it probably wont happen.

That's pretty much how it goes... My luck is terrible.

Someone needs to lock or sticky this thread so it doesn't get forgotten about and no one can spam the thread and get it deleted...

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #29 on:** October 19, 2010, 01:07:01 PM »

Remember kids, being able to use a card as written is BAD.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #30 on:** October 19, 2010, 02:39:44 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on October 19, 2010, 01:07:01 PM

Remember kids, being able to use a card as written is BAD.

Consider this Cactus' unintentional gift for making split altar unintentionally useless.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #31 on:** October 19, 2010, 04:50:43 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on October 19, 2010, 01:07:01 PM

Remember kids, being able to use a card as written is BAD.

Oh please great wise knower of all things, do tell why...

Bryon · « **Reply #32 on:** October 19, 2010, 05:58:51 PM »

The elders have discussed this, and have not received a Rob stamp. However, it looks like we may just institute this very clever rule (which I wish I had been smart enough to create):

On cards printed in the Warriors expansion and earlier, the second sentences of special abilities are always just a clarification of the special ability on the first sentence.

So, the discard on Hunger only clarifies what happens to decreased characters. It is not a separate SA.
The second sentence on PotW only clarifies the first sentence.
For Highway and Stillness, you only get to return enhancements if you withdrew the hero.
For Darkness, you only get to add another hero if all the heroes actually withdrew from battle (and were not protected from withdraw, etc.)

There are lots of examples. Go ahead and read all the 2-sentence special abilities on the Warriors cards and earlier and see if this rule would make something not work as intended. If you find something, please post it here so we can revise the rule. Thanks!

Professoralstad · « **Reply #33 on:** October 19, 2010, 08:35:57 PM »

And obviously this would also mean that the Golden Censer return of EC's is only clarifying what to do with any EC's in KotW, and does not function as a battle winner.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #34 on:** October 19, 2010, 09:15:47 PM »

Nice, that's a brilliant rule. 10 points for each elder.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #35 on:** October 20, 2010, 11:13:17 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 19, 2010, 08:35:57 PM

And obviously this would also mean that the Golden Censer return of EC's is only clarifying what to do with any EC's in KotW, and does not function as a battle winner.

I do not accept this as truth.... Everything is relative.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** October 20, 2010, 12:14:12 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 19, 2010, 08:35:57 PM

And obviously this would also mean that the Golden Censer return of EC's is only clarifying what to do with any EC's in KotW, and does not function as a battle winner.

I vote that this last part of your explanation is clarifying text, so it does still function as a battle winner.

Master KChief · « **Reply #37 on:** October 21, 2010, 02:56:07 AM »

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #38 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:32:28 AM »

Quote

There are lots of examples. Go ahead and read all the 2-sentence special abilities on the Warriors cards and earlier and see if this rule would make something not work as intended. If you find something, please post it here so we can revise the rule. Thanks!

I think Temptation doesn't fit the rule. Without the second sentence, you could add a different male hero to battle.

Temptation: All male Heroes must withdraw from battle. Opponent must place a female Hero into battle or rescue attempt fails.

There may also be problems with the set-asides ("Set hero aside. Gain whatever") and the retreat cards (enhancements returning is not a default of retreating, as far as I know).

Korunks · « **Reply #39 on:** October 21, 2010, 09:29:54 AM »

Quote

I think Temptation doesn't fit the rule. Without the second sentence, you could add a different male hero to battle.

Temptation: All male Heroes must withdraw from battle. Opponent must place a female Hero into battle or rescue attempt fails.

There may also be problems with the set-asides ("Set hero aside. Gain whatever") and the retreat cards (enhancements returning is not a default of retreating, as far as I know).

I think they are considering having this rule just for Warriors cards, Temptation is from the womans set. But I agree with the set asides, aren't there set asides in warriors that will not work with this rule?

The Schaef · « **Reply #40 on:** October 21, 2010, 09:38:51 AM »

The gain on return is tied to the set-aside anyway; we already treat those cards like this, which is why cards forced out of set-aside before a set time get no benefit.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2010, 11:35:42 AM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on October 21, 2010, 03:32:28 AM

I think Temptation doesn't fit the rule. Without the second sentence, you could add a different male hero to battle.

Temptation: All male Heroes must withdraw from battle. Opponent must place a female Hero into battle or rescue attempt fails.

There may also be problems with the set-asides ("Set hero aside. Gain whatever") and the retreat cards (enhancements returning is not a default of retreating, as far as I know).

The idea is to do this with all cards up through Warriors (including Original, Prophets, Women's, and Warriors sets). "Temptation" is actually a good example of what we're trying to "clarify" with this rule. If "Temptation" was read as 2 separate abilities, then it would win a battle even if the hero were immune to withdraw abilities unless they could add a female to battle. But instead we are suggesting that the 2nd sentence is just clarifying the first sentence to say that if there aren't any males in battle (due to forced withdrawl) that the only way to win would be to add a female hero to keep fighting.

Similarly, all the set asides tell how long the characters are set aside, and the 2nd sentence clarifies what happens to them. If the SAs were read as separate abilities in the 2 sentences, then it would seem that people could gain the benefits even if they couldn't be set aside for some reason. We want people to know that the sentences are NOT independent from each other (as they are on later set's cards).

Unfortunately, this means that "The Golden Censer" will not work as a battle winner. But fortunately, it is an objective rule that is easy to explain and play with.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #42 on:** October 21, 2010, 01:44:37 PM »

So the second sentence is still important (in some cases), but not an SA?

lightningninja · « **Reply #43 on:** October 21, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »

But being able to add a female is different than all males withdrawing. So it's not just clarification.

Bryon · « **Reply #44 on:** October 21, 2010, 02:21:38 PM »

On Temptation, the second sentence is a second ability, but not an independent one. It only applies if the first one was successful. The same is true for the set aside cards.

So, for Warriors and earlier, it appears we have two kinds of multi-sentence abilities:
1) second sentence is not a second ability, but clarifies the first (Prince of this World, Hunger, etc.)
2) second sentence depends on the first completing, and modifies the result of that first ability (set asides, Temptation, Golden Censer, withdraw and keep enhancements, etc.)

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #45 on:** October 21, 2010, 06:17:28 PM »

I'm not sure if these fit under 2), but there are also CBI/P/N (First and Third Seal) and limited use (arts, NJ site) as second sentences.

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Author Topic: Helmet of Brass and The Golden Censer (Read 6515 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef