Author Topic: Helmet of Brass and The Golden Censer (Read 6516 times)

SirNobody · « **on:** September 23, 2010, 01:51:39 PM »

Hey,

Helmet of Brass - 3/4 - "Worth 6/8 if played against Crimson Brigade."

So if I use Helmet of Brass against an Orange Evil Character and an Evil Multicolor enhancement is played, does Helmet of Brass become worth 6/8?

The Golden Censer - 2/2 - "Discard the Kingdoms of the World Site. Evil Characters return to owner's territory."

The evil characters in Kingdoms end up discarded when I use this card, right?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Professoralstad · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2010, 01:53:34 PM »

No. There is no such thing as the Kingdoms of the World Site. It's a Fortress. So nothing happens.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2010, 02:00:42 PM »

But there was a Kingdoms of the World site when this card was printed. It was not redefined as a fortress until later. I would suppose that this also led to an expectation that TGC would affect the redefined KotW, but this is not explicitly stated in the REG.

The wording of TGC is interesting, and I never noticed it before. Since the SA is divided by a period, does the second sentence refer to all ECs? In that case, it kicks all ECs out of battle as well.

I think it was intended to discard KotW and return the ECs from that "site" (and only those ECS) to their owner's territory, but what it actually does given the changes in various rulings I have no idea now.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2010, 03:35:26 PM »

This card needs a play as. It obviously meant to discard the KotW and return the ECs there to the owner's territory. If it were written today, it would have to say "Interrupt KotW and return all ECs there to territory. Discard KotW."

Without a play as, the technical reading of the ability would be to discard the KotW and the ECs inside (again based on the ruling I don't like about protected ECs following the fortress), and the 2nd half of the SA would not make any ECs in battle return to territory.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2010, 07:04:09 PM »

and I would rule it the second way stating that the second half of the ability is just a clarification before it was ruled that the contents follow the card.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2010, 07:23:52 PM »

I was wondering about TGC as a battle-winner since it said to return Evil Characters... I wasn't sure if it meant the ones in KotW or the ones in battle?

Arch Angel · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2010, 09:01:35 PM »

It says "return ALL evil characters to owner's territory" so wouldn't that target all ECs in play and try to return them to their owner's territory(ies)?

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2010, 09:30:09 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 23, 2010, 03:35:26 PM

This card needs a play as.

Which is why I bring it up

...or possibly it's a key part of the amazing combo I came up with that completely breaks the game!

Quote

It obviously meant to discard the KotW and return the ECs there to the owner's territory. If it were written today, it would have to say "Interrupt KotW and return all ECs there to territory. Discard KotW."

Without a play as, the technical reading of the ability would be to discard the KotW and the ECs inside (again based on the ruling I don't like about protected ECs following the fortress), and the 2nd half of the SA would not make any sense and would do nothing.

If I were personally judging a tourney, I would be inclined to rule it the first way rather than the technical way.

How it would be written today and what the play as should be are two different things. I'm actually kinda wondering if the futility and counter-intuitiveness of the second ability justifies giving it errata.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2010, 10:07:37 PM »

Or we could just let it be a battle-winner, like it's written as. Silver has zero all-target battle-winners, and us realizing how pwn this card is could make Silver usable. Don't "fix" Silver out of a good card.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2010, 10:55:15 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 23, 2010, 10:07:37 PM

Or we could just let it be a battle-winner, like it's written as. Silver has zero all-target battle-winners, and us realizing how pwn this card is could make Silver usable. Don't "fix" Silver out of a good card.

This is also a good perspective. We could leave it alone and let it turn into a decent 2-ability card. It would be a battle winner that also discards KotW. That also saves us from having to have an errata. I like that idea.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2010, 10:56:08 PM »

I like how no one even addresses question number one.

But yeah, I agree that the wording suggests battle-winningness, and since it is not nearly OP as written, I don't see a reason to give it errata to make it dumb and worthless again.

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2010, 10:58:00 PM »

*Runs off to make sure he has at least 10 copies of The Golden Censer*

lightningninja · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2010, 11:03:25 PM »

Seriously... can I get an elder say that as of now, this works?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2010, 11:07:56 PM »

Actually, it's always worked this way, we just didn't realize. The only thing an Elder would be needed for is if they decide to neuter it.

lightningninja · « **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2010, 11:10:20 PM »

That's true... I'd just like an official ruling because I have a tournament this Saturday. I'm considering this...

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2010, 11:18:40 PM »

Bad wording FTW.

The ability based on what the card says boggles my mind in that it not only makes the card playable, but it makes it a very cool card and even kind of makes sense with the reference.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2010, 09:23:15 AM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on September 23, 2010, 11:18:40 PM

Bad wording FTW.

The ability based on what the card says boggles my mind in that it not only makes the card playable, but it makes it a very cool card and even kind of makes sense with the reference.

Actually, all cards are playable. It's a matter of worth, not playability.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on September 23, 2010, 10:56:08 PM

I like how no one even addresses question number one.

I would assume so, since the ability just says "Crimson Brigade", and there is technically a Crimson brigade enhancement...

SirNobody · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2010, 02:22:08 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: lightningninja on September 23, 2010, 11:03:25 PM

Seriously... can I get an elder say that as of now, this works?

No. It doesn't work. It never has worked.

Quote from: Arch Angel on September 23, 2010, 09:01:35 PM

It says "return ALL evil characters to owner's territory" so wouldn't that target all ECs in play and try to return them to their owner's territory(ies)?

Go read your card again. The card in caps lock isn't on the card and it's the reason this doesn't work.

How many cards can you find that target evil characters without specifying "a" "an" "one" "any" "all" "selected" or something else like that? Cards that don't are referring to a previously specified group of evil characters. In this case their previously specified-ness is fuzzy, but it's referring to the evil characters that were in Kingdoms.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Master KChief · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »

if thats the case, then the card will need play as.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2010, 04:53:11 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on September 30, 2010, 02:22:08 PM

How many cards can you find that target evil characters without specifying "a" "an" "one" "any" "all" "selected" or something else like that? Cards that don't are referring to a previously specified group of evil characters. In this case their previously specified-ness is fuzzy, but it's referring to the evil characters that were in Kingdoms.

I disagree that it has to be interpreted this way. The 2 abilities are in separate sentences and therefore do not have to be connected at all. I think it is a valid interpretation to say that KotW is discarded AND Evil characters return to owner's territory (this would also be an interesting way to get SWS back).

The M · « **Reply #20 on:** September 30, 2010, 08:10:10 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on September 23, 2010, 01:51:39 PM

Hey,

Helmet of Brass - 3/4 - "Worth 6/8 if played against Crimson Brigade."

So if I use Helmet of Brass against an Orange Evil Character and an Evil Multicolor enhancement is played, does Helmet of Brass become worth 6/8?

The Golden Censer - 2/2 - "Discard the Kingdoms of the World Site. Evil Characters return to owner's territory."

The evil characters in Kingdoms end up discarded when I use this card, right?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

ok. just a question...
who would use helmet of brass anyway?

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2010, 08:13:57 PM »

Quote from: The M on September 30, 2010, 08:10:10 PM

ok. just a question...
who would use helmet of brass anyway?

Does it matter? We should solidify rulings regardless of the card in question.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #22 on:** October 01, 2010, 09:10:20 AM »

Quote from: browarod on September 30, 2010, 08:13:57 PM

Quote from: The M on September 30, 2010, 08:10:10 PM
ok. just a question...
who would use helmet of brass anyway?
Does it matter? We should solidify rulings regardless of the card in question.

Exactly. There are some cards that don't work if a particular card in battle (Fireball and Flying Flames come to mind), and generally no one really uses Shield of Faith.

The M · « **Reply #23 on:** October 17, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »

Quote from: Master_Chi on October 01, 2010, 09:10:20 AM

Quote from: browarod on September 30, 2010, 08:13:57 PM
Quote from: The M on September 30, 2010, 08:10:10 PM
ok. just a question...
who would use helmet of brass anyway?
Does it matter? We should solidify rulings regardless of the card in question.

Exactly. There are some cards that don't work if a particular card in battle (Fireball and Flying Flames come to mind), and generally no one really uses Shield of Faith.

OOHHH!
Stone cut without hands saves the day once again!

Master_Chi · « **Reply #24 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:15:18 AM »

So.... What's the ruling? It seems to me that there is one for and one against TGC returning all EC's.

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Author Topic: Helmet of Brass and The Golden Censer (Read 6516 times)

browarod