Author Topic: healing/decrease question (Read 3299 times)

sepjazzwarrior · « **on:** June 07, 2012, 06:50:11 PM »

if you heal a character that is decreased in numbers, do they return to full numbers?

Bryon · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2012, 06:51:42 PM »

megamanlan · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2012, 07:18:18 PM »

Yes, you can heal Characters under 3 circumstances (as far as I know, someone correct me if I'm wrong)
The three ways are:
1. If your Hero is being Discarded,
2. If your Hero has reduced abilities,
3. If your Hero is poisoned/diseased (aka just about any Evil Place ability that places on a Hero)

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 07, 2012, 06:50:11 PM

if you heal a character that is decreased in numbers, do they return to full numbers?

Quote from: Bryon on June 07, 2012, 06:51:42 PM

Yes

That is incorrect per the REG. I'll post the relevant parts here, and bold the important parts.

Quote

A character healed from the effect(s) paired with a poison ability gains back any strength and toughness lost because of it. A character healed from the effect(s) paired with a poison ability remains in the location it is in. A character healed from a discard ability is moved to its owner's territory. If a character is discarded and healed later that turn, it regains any lost abilities or effects of being discarded (i.e., returning to face value in the discard pile).
...
A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.

First, you cannot play a healing enhancements on a character in your territory that is decreased by a card that is not a poison or disease, as it does not meet the targeting conditions. It must have been discarded (or "about to be discarded"), be poisoned, or be diseased. The definition is actually very specific, and even lists what counts as poison and disease for the definition. That means that something decreased by Hunger or GoS do not qualify as targets.

Second, if a character is in discard and targeted by a heal ability, they return to territory and return to their previous state, reversing the return to face value from hitting discard. If they were decreased by any card that was not a poison (like GoS), the decrease remains, because the heal has no effect on the decrease and the return to face value is reversed (thus the decrease remains). If that results in a toughness of */0 or less, the character is discarded again by game rule.

Short story: Heal has no effect on decrease abilities unless they come from poison.

megamanlan · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:22:41 PM »

I don't believe this is correct because I can heal a Character dropped by GoS and if a Card returns to face-value that is a Heal Ability.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:28:06 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 07, 2012, 09:22:41 PM

I don't believe this is correct because I can heal a Character dropped by GoS and if a Card returns to face-value that is a Heal Ability.

The rules on healing have no such thing. You are not returned to face value, and in fact it reverses you being returned to face value for hitting discard.

Please quote the section of the rules that support your ruling.

adotson85 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:31:09 PM »

I agree with Redoubter. The REG's wording seems to indicate that a decreased character would only be able to be healed if it is being/was previously discarded as a result of the decrease. A character who has been decreased, but whose tougness is >0 would not be able to be targeted by a healing card.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:37:39 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on June 07, 2012, 09:31:09 PM

I agree with Redoubter. The REG's wording seems to indicate that a decreased character would only be able to be healed if it is being/was previously discarded as a result of the decrease.

It's not just the targeting. Even if they were discarded due to discard, they could be healed but the decrease would not be removed. They would be discarded again.

adotson85 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:52:55 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 07, 2012, 09:37:39 PM

Quote from: adotson85 on June 07, 2012, 09:31:09 PM
I agree with Redoubter. The REG's wording seems to indicate that a decreased character would only be able to be healed if it is being/was previously discarded as a result of the decrease.

It's not just the targeting. Even if they were discarded due to discard, they could be healed but the decrease would not be removed. They would be discarded again.

Correct, unless the character is protected from discard.

Bryon · « **Reply #9 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:56:22 PM »

My answer was correct. If you heal a character (which obviously assumes it could be the target of a heal ability in the first place), then it returns to face value. Characters can only be targeted by a heal ability if they are poisoned/diseased or if they are being discarded.

Characters being discarded can be healed. If that discard was due to a decrease (poison, disease, or otherwise), then the character's abilities are restored.

The REG says that the healed character "regains any lost abilities." That means that the numbers are restored. That sentence isn't super clear in the REG, and should be clarified, but it is the way we've been playing it since 1996, when Hunger was printed. Changing that would be going against years of precedent which states that healing a hero discarded by Hunger retores it to full stats.

adotson85 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 07, 2012, 10:01:59 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 07, 2012, 09:56:22 PM

My answer was correct. If you heal a character (which obviously assumes it could be the target of a heal ability in the first place), then it returns to face value. Characters can only be targeted by a heal ability if they are poisoned/diseased or if they are being discarded.

Characters being discarded can be healed. If that discard was due to a decrease (poison, disease, or otherwise), then the character's abilities are restored.

The REG says that the healed character "regains any lost abilities." That means that the numbers are restored. That sentence isn't super clear in the REG, and should be clarified, but it is the way we've been playing it since 1996, when Hunger was printed. Changing that would be going against years of precedent which states that healing a hero discarded by Hunger retores it to full stats.

So the following quote from the REG is incorrect?

Quote

If a character is discarded and healed later that turn, it regains any lost abilities or effects of being discarded (i.e., returning to face value in the discard pile).

The decrease seems to be an effect, which would also be re-gained upon healing.

Bryon · « **Reply #11 on:** June 07, 2012, 10:09:40 PM »

No, that quote is correct. It is just confusing.

"It regains any lost abilities." That means it regains any lost abilities (*/*).

The "effects of being discarded" phrase is the confusing part. It means that a character retains its converted status, special abilities gained in set aside, and any other effects that are usually reset when a character is put in the discard pile. The only reason we had to add that part (which obviously needs a rewrite for clarity) is because heal abilities are allowed to "reach back" into previous phases, unlike most other abilties. (That is, you can heal a character in your discard phase who was discarded in your upkeep or battle phase.) So, you could have a converted Gomer hero discarded in your preparation phase (due to a decrease, for example), and then for the rest of that turn, Gomer can only be targeted as an EC in your discard pile, except that a heal ability can target it as a hero in the brigade that it had at any time during that turn. Then, the healed Gomer would return as a hero. But it would be a 3/3 hero, not a decreased hero. Get it?

megamanlan · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »

So in otherwords, your saying it's impossible to restore reduced abilities on a Character that's not dead even though Brass Serpent only allows you to do that (even though that's all Brass Serpent (P) does)

Bryon · « **Reply #13 on:** June 09, 2012, 01:12:56 AM »

Where did I say that?

I said you can heal a hero who is poisoned/diseased. That will restore reduced abilities.

megamanlan · « **Reply #14 on:** June 09, 2012, 09:06:27 AM »

It wasn't you, it was Redoubter was saying, and I understood it that Healing can Heal any decrease (like if GoS was used)

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2012, 12:25:22 PM »

First, to Byron, I appreciate that you see what I'm saying. By the exact wording the REG and the grammar used, it does not indicate a ruling as you have described. I'm fine with being wrong on this (because, let's face it, that would be ridiculously silly for heal not to restore decrease), but it would be greatly appreciated if we could update the wording.

On that front...Heal is one of those abilities that is just confusing as all get-out, especially to new players. Whenever abilities get updates, Ignore, Instead, Redirect, and Heal all need some clarifications. They are constantly being questioned

Quote from: megamanlan on June 08, 2012, 12:22:38 PM

So in otherwords, your saying it's impossible to restore reduced abilities on a Character that's not dead even though Brass Serpent only allows you to do that (even though that's all Brass Serpent (P) does)

Quote from: Bryon on June 09, 2012, 01:12:56 AM

Where did I say that?

I said you can heal a hero who is poisoned/diseased. That will restore reduced abilities.

Brass Serpent cannot target or heal any character with a non-poison decrease that has not been discarded. The reason is that it has an official errata:

Brass Serpent - Discard all poisons and diseases in play. Heal all Heroes in play.

It is defined as a Heal ability now without the parts about restoring all heroes to full strength. Heal abilities cannot target a character with a decrease that isn't caused by a poison unless that character is discarded. Only then are the abilities restored:

Quote

If a character is discarded and healed later that turn, it regains any lost abilities or effects of being discarded (i.e., returning to face value in the discard pile).

Nowhere in the definition does Heal allow you to target or heal someone with a decrease caused by something like GoS unless they were in discard. While I concede that they would have their abilities restored after Byron's explanation, they are still not legal targets for a Heal ability.

Even if you played this card in battle or on a legal target, it could not affect any characters in your territory with a non-poison decrease unless they were about to be discarded. This is per the rules in the REG.

megamanlan · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM »

That still lacks sense since all recent cards depicting diseases aren't diseases. If its not currently apart of Heal abilities, then I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.

It would make Heroes with a Heal ability actually useful, (none of them are really useful right now, except for maybe Guardian Angel)
It makes a Counter to Decrease Abilities ( which doesn't have a real way to stop it besides Negating it, and how do u have a good way to Negate a fortress easily?)

And it would be Biblically accurate since if someone was injured, the Bible mentions healing for those that are broken, which is more then just sickness.

These are my 3 main reasons for updating Healing Abilities.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2012, 06:51:40 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM

These are my 3 main reasons for updating Healing Abilities.

That's all well and good, and frankly I agree with you that it is a little silly as it is, but this thread was asking for an answer to a specific question by the current rules. That's what I gave, sense or no.

First, though, I want to see Byron or another Elder respond, to make sure there is nowhere else in the rules that we can already find this to be the case.

Bryon · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:07:50 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM

That still lacks sense since all recent cards depicting diseases aren't diseases.

Really? Can you point me to some of those?

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM

I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.

I could get behind that. Does anyone else wish that were the case?

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:11:50 PM »

id say no cause being able to heal decreased characters would kill samaria decks. in my opinion

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:33:12 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 11, 2012, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.
I could get behind that. Does anyone else wish that were the case?

Yes. I think any method of decreasing abilities should be treated the same.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:34:32 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 11, 2012, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.
I could get behind that. Does anyone else wish that were the case?

As I said before, I'm for that, just pointing out the current rules. My suggested wording:

A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, or has abilities decreased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.
...
A character healed from decrease gains back any strength and toughness lost because of it. A character healed from the effect(s) paired with a poison ability remains in the location it is in. A character healed from a discard ability is moved to its owner's territory. If a character is discarded and healed later that turn, it regains any abilities lost to decrease as well as reversing any effects of being discarded (i.e., returning to face value in the discard pile).

Drrek · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2012, 07:40:34 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 11, 2012, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.
I could get behind that. Does anyone else wish that were the case?

I wish heal would get a concise, updated definition, and if that's what this would result in, I'd be all for it.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** June 12, 2012, 12:46:20 PM »

@Redoubter, you also need to include poison and disease, since not all of them decrease or Discard (most notably Palsy).

megamanlan · « **Reply #24 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:01:04 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 11, 2012, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
That still lacks sense since all recent cards depicting diseases aren't diseases.
Really? Can you point me to some of those?

Plagued with Diseases, and some other newer cards like that

Quote from: megamanlan on June 10, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
I'll suggest that Heal Abilities should be able to target a Hero with decreased abilities and restore that Character to full abilities instead of just a Character who is diseased.
I could get behind that. Does anyone else wish that were the case?

Quote from: christiangamer25 on June 11, 2012, 07:11:50 PM

id say no cause being able to heal decreased characters would kill samaria decks. in my opinion

That's kinda the idea, GoS is currently insanely powerful and has no effective counters, this would make it less OP

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Author Topic: healing/decrease question (Read 3299 times)