Author Topic: Healing Saul/Paul when discarded from hand? (Read 6026 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2010, 01:31:29 PM »

Quote from: D-man on May 10, 2010, 12:31:11 PM

Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.

No, that is actually not my point, and that is clearly illegal.

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on May 10, 2010, 11:43:52 AM

I'm not sure what you are referring to...

What I'm talking about is that it says that "if you have more than 8 cards" you get to discard. However, if you have 8 or less cards in your hand already, then you "should announce that you are finished.". In other words, if I have 8 cards in my hand, then I can't choose to discard any of them.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2010, 05:14:18 PM »

So your basic premise is to disregard what the rulebook says because you find what you see as a contradiction of how the game is played in some places, therefore you can disregard any rule in the rulebook as long as that is how the game has been played in some places?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2010, 06:45:47 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 10, 2010, 01:31:29 PM

Quote from: D-man on May 10, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.
No, that is actually not my point, and that is clearly illegal.

Whew! What a relief.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2010, 07:34:49 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 10, 2010, 01:31:29 PM

What I'm talking about is that it says that "if you have more than 8 cards" you get to discard. However, if you have 8 or less cards in your hand already, then you "should announce that you are finished.". In other words, if I have 8 cards in my hand, then I can't choose to discard any of them.

Saying that you can't discard further the instant that you reach 8 or less is taking that one line of the rulebook out of context with the other statements it makes. The paragraph from the rulbook starts with the statement "After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less." This statement clearly allows you to discard to less than eight since it uses the word "OR". You must reduce to eight OR you must reduce to less. Since you can pick "less" and to "reduce" you have to discard a card, then it is allowed. The two sentences after that explain the two types of actions that you can take to accomplish the first sentence. The first of those may be poorly ordered, but adds that you should announce you are finished when you have eight or fewer. It doesn't say that you should announce you are finished AS SOON AS you have eight or fewer; just that WHEN you announce it you should have eight or fewer. If you take it to mean "as soon as" then it would contradict the first sentence of the paragraph. The last sentence explains the technique for reducing to eight or fewer, and re-iterates that it needs to be done when you have more than eight (but doesn't address when you already have eight or fewer, so therefore does not contradict the first sentence).

So I think it is clear that you can discard to any number of cards that is eight or less. However, this still doesn't allow you to play a healing enhancement once you choose to start discarding.

Mike

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2010, 09:35:48 PM »

Quote from: mjwolfe on May 10, 2010, 07:34:49 PM

Saying that you can't discard further the instant that you reach 8 or less is taking that one line of the rulebook out of context with the other statements it makes. The paragraph from the rulbook starts with the statement "After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less." This statement clearly allows you to discard to less than eight since it uses the word "OR".

OK, you want to talk to me about context, let's actually look at the context. The context was left out of the original quotation of the rulebook in this thread, and so I can understand why you would be confused. I had just looked at the rulebook, and therefore understood the context and stated the correct interpretation of it. Since you then called me out on it, I will provide the context so that you can more fully understand this issue.

Quote from: Rulebook

You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile.

This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.

The context is that you can do a number of things at the end of your turn (see the bullets above). However, NONE of those options are to discard cards from your hand. Then after you have done all of those options that you want to, the very last part of your turn is to get down to 8 or less cards. It tells you how to do that with 2 "if" statements. "If" you have 8 or less cards, then you announce you are done. "If" you have more than 8 cards, then you discard. There are only 2 options listed. Neither of those includes the common practice of having 8 or fewer cards and still discarding more, just because we want to.

That is the full context. A strict reading of this section says that you can NOT discard from your hand if you have 8 or fewer cards. Either the rulebook is wrong, or everyone else (except YMT) is wrong

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2010, 09:41:13 PM »

Then why is the word fewer used in the first and last statements? To me a strict interpretation of this says that If I have 8 cards (or less) in my hand at the end of my turn I can't discard. HOWEVER if I have 9 cards I could discard down to One.

How much sense does that make?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2010, 09:43:24 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on May 10, 2010, 09:41:13 PM

Then why is the word fewer used in the first and last statements? To me a strict interpretation of this says that If I have 8 cards (or less) in my hand at the end of my turn I can't discard. HOWEVER if I have 9 cards I could discard down to One.

How much sense does that make?

I agree completely. If you have 8 or less, then you can't discard. If you have 9 or more, you can discard as many as you like. I also agree that this does NOT make any sense, which is why I made my initial statement that the rulebook on this section is out of date.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2010, 09:53:42 PM »

What you are trying to do is manipulate the interpretation of the rest of the last paragraph so that a "literal" translation would contradict what is known. You then try to use that supposed contradiction to invalidate a "literal" translation of the first sentence in that last paragraph. Semantic manipulation is really not your style.

The irony is that if anyone tried to do the same trick with "literal" translations of Bible passages, you would be the first one to jump on the boards and give them a Holy Hand Chop to the throat.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2010, 10:11:00 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 10, 2010, 09:53:42 PM

What you are trying to do is manipulate the interpretation of the rest of the last paragraph so that a "literal" translation would contradict what is known. You then try to use that supposed contradiction to invalidate a "literal" translation of the first sentence in that last paragraph. Semantic manipulation is really not your style.

I'm not 100% sure I get what you're saying here, but I really do think that the two "if" statements are clarifying how to get your hand down to 8 or less cards. I'm not trying to play semantics here. I really think that the rulebook is clearly saying that you can't discard from your hand unless you have more than 8 cards in it.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 10, 2010, 09:53:42 PM

The irony is that if anyone tried to do the same trick with "literal" translations of Bible passages, you would be the first one to jump on the boards and give them a Holy Hand Chop to the throat.

First of all, I really laughed out loud when I read this. Secondly, you are right that I would be the first one to Holy Hand Chop someone who went against the literal interpretation of the Bible and called it outdated, just because everyone was doing things differently now. Thirdly, I don't hold the Redemption rulebook anywhere near the level of authority as the Bible, and it already has been declared out of date in several other sections.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2010, 10:18:08 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 10, 2010, 10:11:00 PM

First of all, I really laughed out loud when I read this.

But the real is question is whether that is enough to make your Favorite Quotes thread.

sk · « **Reply #35 on:** May 11, 2010, 06:25:37 AM »

Prof. Underwood, please re-read this part of the rulebook entry you posted above:

Quote from: Rulebook

After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile.

Note what I put in bold, and note that should =/= must. The use of 'should' seems to have been intended to be interpreted as 'you should end your turn, but if you wanna go crazy discarding your hand, knock yourself out'.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #36 on:** May 11, 2010, 09:23:48 AM »

Quote from: sk on May 11, 2010, 06:25:37 AM

Note what I put in bold, and note that should =/= must. The use of 'should' seems to have been intended to be interpreted as 'you should end your turn, but if you wanna go crazy discarding your hand, knock yourself out'.

I'm all for going crazy and knocking yourself out on occasion. However the "should" isn't quite that generous. If the rulebooks said, "you CAN end your turn" or "you MAY end your turn", then maybe there would be grounds to argue that you could also choose to discard (although that option is never given to someone with 8 or less cards).

However, "should" means that something is the "right thing to do". It means that there is a "moral imperative". And in this case (both being a rulebook and being a Christian card game), that means that there really is no choice there. If you have 8 or less cards, then the right thing to do is to end your turn. To do otherwise is breaking the rules (which are outdated as has been previously mentioned).

Bryon · « **Reply #37 on:** May 11, 2010, 10:18:56 AM »

First, you need to know that the rulebook was written with a lot of redundancy, in an effort to make things more clear. Sometimes, the opposite effect is achieved.

You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. ~~If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile~~. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)

This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.

To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #38 on:** May 11, 2010, 10:32:27 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 11, 2010, 10:18:56 AM

First, you need to know that the rulebook was written with a lot of redundancy, in an effort to make things more clear. Sometimes, the opposite effect is achieved.

You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less~~. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand~~, then you should announce that you are finished. ~~If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile~~. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)

This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.

To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished

Just to be more clear, could we take out even a little bit more of the redundancy like listed above?

Also, shouldn't "Heal a character that was discarded during the turn." be added as another one of the bullet points?

Bryon · « **Reply #39 on:** May 11, 2010, 11:18:52 AM »

Good suggestion, Mark.

You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Heal a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. ~~If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand~~, Then you should announce that you are finished. I~~f you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile~~. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)

This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.

To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #40 on:** May 11, 2010, 01:25:37 PM »

So, its official, you can't D/c SP then heal?

cdbany · « **Reply #41 on:** May 11, 2010, 02:33:05 PM »

that is correct, heal cards must be played before you discard your hand down at the end of your turn

Gabe · « **Reply #42 on:** May 11, 2010, 02:40:54 PM »

Maybe we'll get a new card that will let you discard Saul/Paul from your hand during the prep phase...

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #43 on:** May 11, 2010, 03:46:08 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 11, 2010, 02:40:54 PM

Maybe we'll get a new card that will let you discard Saul/Paul from your hand during the prep phase...

Yeah, now I gotta figure that out. I mean it they use a hand d/c ls or genesis you are fine but man...As if heroless needed more nerfing.

Bryon · « **Reply #44 on:** May 11, 2010, 04:05:58 PM »

Use Intent to Kill.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #45 on:** May 13, 2010, 12:59:00 AM »

Splash Philly Outpost as a discard outlet

News:

Author Topic: Healing Saul/Paul when discarded from hand? (Read 6026 times)