Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on January 19, 2011, 02:19:57 AM
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Can Great Faith(wo) search for an evil card?
Great Faith (Wo)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may search own draw pile and exchange this card with another enhancement card, then shuffle. • Errata: Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your deck (you may place in hand or add to battle). • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Matthew 15:28 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19440.msg304022#msg304022 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19440.msg304022#msg304022)
Newb ;)
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some playtesters would argue with you sir because it says ERRATA and i have a feeling no matter what polarius says this one is going to stick. :)
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Hey,
There is something wrong with the play as. Similar to what happened with Battle Prayer, the additional condition (the requirement for the card to be good) that was added to the reprint somehow got into the play as for the original. Great Faith (the women's version) can still get an evil enhancement.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
This refers to when the REG listed it as a "Play As" which was wrong. The current version of the REG states that it is an errata so it is a legitimate entry. I'm not sure when or why, but that is the current ruling. That entry, (along with many other questionable REG entries that have not been amended to this point), is being reviewed by the Elders and playtesters.
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Howd you know? I cant believe i cant search for an EE with Great Faith. I wish we'd get that card figured out.
Agreed. The only ruling I saw was the one I posted from Tim and I did not find any other rulings on Great Faith. Just seems someone switched the Play As to an Errata and left us to assume that is the official ruling. Hopefully we get an official ruling on this. I am in favor for being able to search for an EE with Great Faith. I try to keep the game simple. The card should be played as worded on the card, unless it is found to be broken. Then and only then should an errata be issued. If this is an official errata then why does Split Altar not get an errata?
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because We dont want it to be able to search for Sin in the Camp. Oh wait, ok- you can search for an evil enhancement with Great Faith and we'll just erratta Sin in the Camp to play like ABomB instead. Oh and Split Alter still doesnt work.
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what the heck you going to do with just one SitC anyways...Have Fun and Fellowship with it...: :-X
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besides, I thought we made cards to stop this kinda thing anyways. I remember when placed cards were laughed at. I Am Grace, Nathan, Two Bears, here's some new ones: Baptism of Jesus, Abraham's Descendant (Di)
I like this pic: (https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FBehold%2520the%2520Lamb%2520%28Di%29.gif&hash=6e312e50c3060f058054f85cbd047650ad2333fc)
oh and:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FLifting%2520the%2520Curse%2520%28Di%29.gif&hash=e9792dbb5042a418541a8f1f30c24aa4de51836b)
Territory Class rocks! Darius Decree FTW.
MVP:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FPassover%2520Hymn%2520%28Di%29.gif&hash=16e48cdeda62ab0016da0f3f5960da0be8feaa11)
X= what?
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wait, was there some new way that they have screwed up SitC? did they say that you can only have one copy in play at a time?
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Let's have a poll:
Should SitC have a new identifier? Only one per territory?
1. yes
or
2. no
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Let's have a poll:
Should SitC have a new identifier? Only one per territory?
1. yes
or
2. no
OK, but only people who have faced a T2 SitC deck that can lock you down with 0 cards in hand within the first 2 or 3 turns of the game are allowed to vote. You and I know better than anyone that all those counters you listed don't matter when that happens. :laugh:
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Redemption really needs to ban cards, it is just that simple.
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Redemption really needs to ban cards, it is just that simple.
In certain types of play. It seems a lot of the "broken" stuff/tactics are useless in T1 i.e. they work perfectly normal. Well, I haven't encountered it in T1 so maybe I'm missing something.
-C_S
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Redemption really needs to ban cards, it is just that simple.
I'd prefer not to ban any cards, but I'm not 100% against the idea if the need truly does arise. For now though, there's no need to ban cards when a simple fix can be made.
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wait, was there some new way that they have screwed up SitC? did they say that you can only have one copy in play at a time?
only time will tell...and what about great faith?
OK, but only people who have faced a T2 SitC deck that can lock you down with 0 cards in hand within the first 2 or 3 turns of the game are allowed to vote. You and I know better than anyone that all those counters you listed don't matter when that happens.
Nazareth is a huge counter. I wonder how many people will play with that card this year?
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Like Gabe said, "counters" aren't really counters if you have to draw them in the first turn or two to be able to use them. :P
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wait, was there some new way that they have screwed up SitC? did they say that you can only have one copy in play at a time?
wait...no one answered my question. I have been off the boards since nats. I have found nothing in the offical rule changes thread to indicate this but it seems like people are making assumptions about SitC that I don't know about. Has it been changed/erattaed?
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wait...no one answered my question. I have been off the boards since nats. I have found nothing in the offical rule changes thread to indicate this but it seems like people are making assumptions about SitC that I don't know about. Has it been changed/erattaed?
Nothing official yet, but it is a strong possibility.
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It doesn't need an errata if one person plays it only besidesv tyler's ANB reset stops it and you can throw in benedictus if needed.
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OK, but only people who have faced a T2 SitC deck that can lock you down with 0 cards in hand within the first 2 or 3 turns of the game are allowed to vote. You and I know better than anyone that all those counters you listed don't matter when that happens. :laugh:
Pfft! I can do that without a single SitC in my deck.
Of course, it's harder to start the combo, and although I can't guarantee it will last the whole game, it generally lasts until I get 7 redeemed souls.
;)
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nice. well, whatever cards you use to generate that game state will have to be given an errata as well. :)
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has anyone erattaed the warriors battle prayer yet? That would shut down Beseiging the city decks. Might as well take a crack at that if we are going to neuter type II you might as well take Sitc, besieging the city and any other combo that you can think of.
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nice. well, whatever cards card you use to generate that game state will have to be given an errata as well. :)
Fixed. Of course, the card has X erratas.
(X = number of Disciples complaining that they didn't get to draw or play a card during their T2 game.)
;)
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Might as well take a crack at that if we are going to neuter type II you might as well take Sitc, besieging the city and any other combo that you can think of.
You don't think nerfing SitC speed decks would be good for T2?
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Nope, SitC are all thats keeping T2 awesome, cause lets be honest, who isn't sitting waiting for the next awesome combo-deck thats just going to wreck face.
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I hope that was sarcasm. :prayer:
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Nope, SitC are all thats keeping T2 awesome, cause lets be honest, who isn't sitting waiting for the next awesome combo-deck thats just going to wreck face.
I'm not sitting waiting. I'm sitting and building. Unfortunately, I'm a horrible deck builder.
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well if you would like to share any ideas id be glad to help in the building process sir
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I'm fairly sure you destroyed the newest combo I've been working on. Olijar played it. And built it, it was just my idea, haha.
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I hope that was sarcasm. :prayer:
No, you see, that is the issue. Type 2 players relish the opportunity to get waylaid by a fantastic combo deck. The first time Clift played a SitC deck on me was at Nationals in KC. I was in the top 10 (with no real chance to place) and he dropped me 7-3 or soemthing like that. I never saw it coming...but it was awesome! and I went out and built one as soon as I got home.
I played against Kirk's demon deck and I thought it was brilliant in its design. His besieging the city deck is very frustrating, but you gotta give him props on the build.
this past year, I had the privlege of doing the same thing in a regional to Clift....but I misplayed my deck because I had to rebuild it due to the Highway eratta and wasnt as familiar with the new routine. but that is what type 2 players LOVE to do. they want one Re-DONK-ulous deck that totally nerfs everyone it plays....for at least one year until everyone gangs up on it.
I am fine with everyone ganging up on it, but nerfing a deck before it is even played is crazy...and SitC has only won nationals once....at a small field in cali where virtually no one h ad ever played a Sitc deck before. I can play my Sitc deck here in ohio and it gets me mayby a 60% chance of winning with all the counters people play with. Clift plays SitC in Georgia and gets beat like a red headed-stepchild. Tyler LAUGHS (msot of the time) at SitC...because they KNOW how to play against them.
If SitC had won multiple nationals and had beaten people by ridicclous margins then sure, you have a case, but I dont think that the case for a SitC eratta exists yet. expecially wiht all the counters out there now.
I have an issue with people that have a type 1 mindset crying about combos when they play type II for the first time thinkign it will be exaclty like type 1. It is not, it is a different animal. so please let us keep type II as it is and try not to make it a glorified type I.
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Cactus needs to make a T2 starter deck.
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Type 2 players relish the opportunity to get waylaid by a fantastic combo deck.
I don't. Nor do I get much fun out of pulling off a "you can do nothing" combo on someone else. I don't deny that some people enjoy being on either end of one of those combos, but not every T2 player does so that generalization is false.
His besieging the city deck is very frustrating, but you gotta give him props on the build.
Kirk built a very different version of that deck, but it was based on a BtC combo deck that I built back in 2005. Ron Sias also built a version that year. Just for the record... :P
expecially wiht all the counters out there now.
For the third time...how can you possibly incorporate enough counters to handle a combo that can go off as early as turn 2? I lost a recent match against Clift's deck 7-2. I drew a good dom, I am Grace and Gloria in Excelsis Deo. I still got locked with 3 SitCs. It was several turns before I was actually locked, but it was turn 2 or 3 when my hand got shrunk to 3 cards and stayed that way until the lock.
I know this is one game, I know it doesn't always happen, but it's simply a scenario that Redemption can do just fine without. It's one thing to come up against a stiff defense that your offense can't get past or face an overwhelming offense that is seemingly unblockable. It's an entirely different matter when your opponent has more cards in your territory than you have in your territory and hand combined (Lost Souls aside).
but nerfing a deck before it is even played is crazy...and SitC has only won nationals once....
It may have only won Nats once, but it's been around for several years and I'm fairly certain it's caused more frustration and resentment than it's caused people saying "That was so much fun doing absolutely nothing." Just ask the people who have used it (and other combo decks) on a regular basis what the typical response is from their opponents.
I have an issue with people that have a type 1 mindset crying about combos when they play type II for the first time thinkign it will be exaclty like type 1. It is not, it is a different animal. so please let us keep type II as it is and try not to make it a glorified type I.
No one's crying and I've been playing T2 longer than many of those in this thread have been playing Redemption so that "issue" doesn't apply here. It was once possible to take 3 turns in a row in T1--Rob decided this was not good for the game. Why should something that is not good for the game be acceptable in T2?
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For the third time...how can you possibly incorporate enough counters to handle a combo that can go off as early as turn 2? I lost a recent match against Clift's deck 7-2. I drew a good dom, I am Grace and Gloria in Excelsis Deo. I still got locked with 3 SitCs. It was several turns before I was actually locked, but it was turn 2 or 3 when my hand got shrunk to 3 cards and stayed that way until the lock.
;D
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Type 2 players relish the opportunity to get waylaid by a fantastic combo deck.
I don't. Nor do I get much fun out of pulling off a "you can do nothing" combo on someone else. I don't deny that some people enjoy being on either end of one of those combos, but not every T2 player does so that generalization is false.
Now, now...I realize my "Flood the Battlefield" never made it out of the NW, but I heard many a story about "Lockdown". And Rob never saw mine in action so it wasn't the reason for the sudden rule change of one side battle per turn.
;)
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I hope that was sarcasm. :prayer:
Type 2 players relish the opportunity to get waylaid by a fantastic combo deck.
I don't, Kirks demon deck (which was by the way genius) wasn't fun to play. He got it off on turn 2 and there was nothing I could do about it. I have nothing wrong with people wanting to play combo decks, however they inherently undermine the game. They discourage player interaction, tech against almost every deck type, exploits the poorly worded specials/ no ban policy, and can discourage fun and fellowship. I understand why you had fun playing it, but I am thinking that if you were in my position you may have felt differently about the whole matter. I know Gabe wasn't thrilled either.
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I'm fairly sure you destroyed the newest combo I've been working on. Olijar played it. And built it, it was just my idea, haha.
You only found it because my other combo is illegal, to be fair ;). Also, I hate Sin in the Camp Speed. 12 cards drawn on turn 1 = GG sir to our combo.
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I'm fairly sure you destroyed the newest combo I've been working on. Olijar played it. And built it, it was just my idea, haha.
You only found it because my other combo is illegal, to be fair ;). Also, I hate Sin in the Camp Speed. 12 cards drawn on turn 1 = GG sir to our combo.
I was toying with the same idea back in September. I was trying to do too much though, and it failed.
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Yeah, it's a very fragile deck structure.
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I hope that was sarcasm. :prayer:
Type 2 players relish the opportunity to get waylaid by a fantastic combo deck.
I don't, Kirks demon deck (which was by the way genius) wasn't fun to play. He got it off on turn 2 and there was nothing I could do about it. I have nothing wrong with people wanting to play combo decks, however they inherently undermine the game. They discourage player interaction, tech against almost every deck type, exploits the poorly worded specials/ no ban policy, and can discourage fun and fellowship. I understand why you had fun playing it, but I am thinking that if you were in my position you may have felt differently about the whole matter. I know Gabe wasn't thrilled either.
Let me rephrase my position. I believe that type I Iplayers love the opportunity to place their minds agains the best combo decks and undo them...beat them at their own game.
And yes I was on the recieving end of Kirk's deck. I was the First person he ever beat with it in an official tournament to the best of my knowledge. But when you make cards like GoH where you can do something an unlimited number of times at any time of the game...then you can expect that kind of abuse. Dont blame Kirk, blame the people who made that card.
When I saw that card I knew it was only a matter of time before someone would break the game.
Now Kirk's demon deck should be fixed in some way. WHen he played me it took him 3 turns to begin the lock out and his deck can set up within that time amount easily. The SitC takes longer (Justins example is the RARE exception) especially when you have counters to it in your own deck.
But it doesnt matter these kind of decks are gonna be banned eventually anyway
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H2O jars work well against sin in the camp decks
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Sure they are...if you draw one plus a Samaritan before turn 3.
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I can lose a T2 game in 5 turns with a combo deck that causes me to do nothing for turns 3-5.
I have lost a T2 game in 5 turns more than once with regular ol' T2 decks, and I was able to do nothing for several turns due to the draw.
Can I get a ruling change on bad draws since it is no fun for that to happen?
:P
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I can lose a T2 game in 5 turns with a combo deck that causes me to do nothing for turns 3-5.
I have lost a T2 game in 5 turns more than once with regular ol' T2 decks, and I was able to do nothing for several turns due to the draw.
Can I get a ruling change on bad draws since it is no fun for that to happen?
:P
There recently was a ruling change that was supposed to help mitigate bad draws (2nd player draws 3). Unfortunately, that change coincided with the introduction of Mayhem, which makes the 2nd player drawing three even worse for him in many cases.
The problem with most combo decks historically is that turns 3-5 are usually arduously long. If I attack your standalone/nonexistaent defense 5 times in a row with my Centurions and then play SoG/NJ, then at least you only spent ten minutes playing and have more time to reconsider using a Red offense... ;D
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The problem with most combo decks historically is that turns 3-5 are usually arduously long. If I attack your standalone/nonexistaent defense 5 times in a row with my Centurions and then play SoG/NJ, then at least you only spent ten minutes playing and have more time to reconsider using a Red offense... ;D
In the combo example, I can use it as a strategy teaching example to RLKs to help them improve their game.
In the other example, they just go back to playing video games until the next round.
When red becomes this season's new green, then I'll make the switch. ;)
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green ain't no good!
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FWIW, my combo uses one red and zero green cards.
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Can Great Faith(wo) search for an evil card?
Great Faith (Wo)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may search own draw pile and exchange this card with another enhancement card, then shuffle. • Errata: Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your deck (you may place in hand or add to battle). • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Matthew 15:28 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)
back on topic?
was this errata correct? can some playtester ask Rob about this one? and please dont forget about Gabe (wa) and Battle Prayer (wa) also which seems to go along with this same argument we've had so many times in the past already.
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was this errata correct? can some playtester ask Rob about this one? and please dont forget about Gabe (wa) and Battle Prayer (wa) also which seems to go along with this same argument we've had so many times in the past already.
I do not find a discussion on the public boards or the elder boards about issuing an errata to Great Faith (Wo). Multiple elders have mentioned their surprise at the change. I believe the errata listed in the REG to be in error.
I'll asked for Rob's input on the elder boards so we can make an official announcement. Please be patient while we wait for him to have time to answer.
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Wait so have I been playing Great Faith wrong for years? I always thought the card that was exchanged for went into battle so that ment you could only search for a good card... does the card you exchange for actually go to your hand?
Also how is Great Faith a spiritual gift?
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It would go into your hand if it doesn't go into battle.
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I believe Paul included "faithfulness" in his list of spiritual fruits, not gifts. Perhaps this is in error?
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It would go into your hand if it doesn't go into battle.
so you mean if its a good card it goes into battle if its evil it bounces to hand?
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Ooops, misread. The may applies to each part. "You MAY search and MAY exchange..."
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Ooops, misread. The may applies to each part. "You MAY search and MAY exchange..."
Correct, Unless I am mistaken and they have changed it, the Womens version is worded in a way that lets you exchange for either a GE or an EE. GE can be placed either in battle or in hand, EE can only be placed in hand
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I have no solid recollection of that ruling. FWIW, I did not see it listed on the official errata list here on the boards... I looked at what we did with Gabriel (WO) and see that he is permitted to discard any enhancement. While the later version of Gabriel is only permitted to discard an evil enhancement. I.E. Gabriel pretty much plays as written. It seems like we should allow the different versions of Great Faith to play as written too. If there are no objections, I will ask Mike to change it. Now, let me just go check my stock of Great Faith (WO) cards. ;)
Rubber stamped. :)
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I have no solid recollection of that ruling. FWIW, I did not see it listed on the official errata list here on the boards... I looked at what we did with Gabriel (WO) and see that he is permitted to discard any enhancement. While the later version of Gabriel is only permitted to discard an evil enhancement. I.E. Gabriel pretty much plays as written. It seems like we should allow the different versions of Great Faith to play as written too. If there are no objections, I will ask Mike to change it. Now, let me just go check my stock of Great Faith (WO) cards. ;)
Rubber stamped. :)
Yay!
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I updated the REG entry for Great Faith (Women) and changed "errata" to "play as" with the word "good" taken out. It now plays as originally printed. The "play as" only serves to use the more recent use of terminology.
Mike
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Kirk built a very different version of that deck, but it was based on a BtC combo deck that I built back in 2005. Ron Sias also built a version that year. Just for the record... :P
Justin,
I placed at nationals with the deck based on yours back in 07. The deck I played at regionals/nationals this past season that Matt is referring to is completely different. :)
Kirk
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Yeah, not being at Nationals the past couple of years, I haven't had a chance to see some of the more recent combo decks.
In essence tho, the basic premise is the same...play BtC every turn :P
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BtC?
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Besieging the City (Ki)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Opponent may not draw cards or make a rescue attempt next turn. • Play As: Restrict opponent from drawing cards next turn and from making a rescue attempt next turn. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Kings 24:11 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)
See also:
• Restrict
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Yeah, not being at Nationals the past couple of years, I haven't had a chance to see some of the more recent combo decks.
In essence tho, the basic premise is the same...play BtC every turn :P
Basically..yeah
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I'm still trying to figure out how everything worked with Kirk's combo. I would love to use it, but I never played it and can't figure everything out. I know how to recur BtC every turn, I just can't figure out how to do it after Gates has been done...
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yes decklist please
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It doesnt matter because they ruled that you cannot heal your heroes from the D/c Pile with brass serpent after gates. It involved using all three of the guys who place enhancements to place a side battle card like sword of the lord or cup of wrath to get a side battle going. you played it on a yellow panic demon. The sidebattles also help to clear your hand and territory as well.
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I never heard that that ruling became official.
And there are four guys who can place enhancements. I'm guessing Jehazial was left out...
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I never heard that that ruling became official.
And there are four guys who can place enhancements. I'm guessing Jehazial was left out...
Maybe he had all 4 I cant remember exactly. but I do know that he confirmed to me that you cannot heal if heroes go straight to the d/c pile from Gates.
and since that is the key to getting this deck set up quickly it basically nerfed the deck
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I also never heard an official ruling on the non-healing of heros from the discard pile. Elders?