Author Topic: Grapes vs. KoT (Read 5017 times)

batman6768 · « **on:** October 13, 2009, 03:55:07 PM »

Grapes of Wrath is played on a blocking KoT, is the next battle by the numbers?

VS.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM »

BtN characters only affect the current battle.

batman6768 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:03:20 PM »

so does grapes create a whole new battle phase or just another battle like a side battle or say Ambush the City?

Ambush the City
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:19 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:04:30 PM »

Quote from: batman6768 on October 13, 2009, 04:03:20 PM

so does grapes create a whole new battle phase or just another battle like a side battle or say Ambush the City?

Ambush the City
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:19 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)

Grapes is closest to the Long Day. It creates a whole new battle, not a side battle

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »

Quote from: batman6768 on October 13, 2009, 04:03:20 PM

so does grapes create a whole new battle phase or just another battle like a side battle or say Ambush the City?

Ambush the City
Type: Hero Enh. Brigade: Yellow Ability: None Class: None Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated. Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon Verse: Joshua 8:19 Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)

Grapes, Ambush the City, and The Long Day I believe are the only cards that create a new battle without ending the battle phase. I'm not sure how that works exactly, but does it really matter?

batman6768 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:06:26 PM »

battle phase or battle there is a difference.....

yeah it matters is it by the #'s or not?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:42:04 PM »

I already answered that question.

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:46:08 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM

BtN characters only affect the current battle.

This is not correct. By the numbers cards affect the entire phase in which they are played. The question is do Ambush the City, The Long Day and Grapes of Wrath create a second rescue attempt in the same battle phase (thus affected by the by the numbers card) or do they create a second rescue attempt in a new battle phase (thus not affected by the by the numbers card). The powers that be are not all in agreement on this topic. My personal opinion is that it is the same battle phase and thus the new battle would be by the numbers.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2009, 05:42:36 PM »

with Sir Nobody

batman6768 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2009, 06:03:44 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 13, 2009, 04:42:04 PM

I already answered that question.

what was your answer again? I must be to dumb to understand.....

well thanks for the info

sk · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2009, 07:08:25 PM »

Gabe and Tim both disagreed with his answer, so just read what they said.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2009, 07:33:54 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 13, 2009, 04:46:08 PM

The powers that be are not all in agreement on this topic. My personal opinion is that it is the same battle phase and thus the new battle would be by the numbers.

What is the cause of the disagreement, out of curiosity? The Long Day, for instance, says you can make a new Rescue Attempt "this turn." It says nothing about a new Battle Phase. According to the rulebook, a "turn" only has one Battle Phase and the card states that it is the same turn.

sk · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2009, 07:51:55 PM »

Also, based on the ANB ruling at Nationals (using ANB on your first turn is a "reset" of your first turn, not your second turn), I'd think Grapes would be a "reset" of the same battle phase.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »

Quote from: sk on October 13, 2009, 07:51:55 PM

Also, based on the ANB ruling at Nationals (using ANB on your first turn is a "reset" of your first turn, not your second turn), I'd think Grapes would be a "reset" of the same battle phase.

Your talking about two seperate abilities here. ANB says shuffle all cards, draw new hands, and that player may begin a new turn. A new turn would mean that a fresh battle phase would come around.

Grapes allows you to start a new battle, but not a new turn. Quoting from the REG:

Quote

These cards negate all special abilities of all cards currently in effect, except those that cannot be negated. It also prevents all special abilities on all cards that are played during the rest of the Battle Phase. The only exceptions are abilities (*/*), definitions of of a “*” in an icon box (see Variable Value (x/x)), or cards that cannot be negated (see Cannot be Negated).

Key concept: All special abilities on all cards played during the rest of the Battle Phase. Grapes allows you a new battle, but not a new phase, so the FBTN effect would still be in place.

Isildur · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:32:09 PM »

Using grapes would it finish the battle but start a new one in the same phase? Or does it use the same battle just wiped clean of cards?

browarod · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:40:58 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on October 13, 2009, 09:32:09 PM

Using grapes would it finish the battle but start a new one in the same phase? Or does it use the same battle just wiped clean of cards?

That seems to be the big question.

My

is that it would start a new battle phase. It is my understanding that enhancements, unless discarded by a special ability, are only sent to the discard pile at the end of the battle phase. As such, either Grapes starts a new battle phase and all enhancements are sent to the discard pile and all ongoing abilities end, or Grapes starts a new battle in which case all enhancements stay on the field possibly usable if a character of matching brigade is used in the new battle. I don't like the idea of enhancements sticking around for the next battle, that would be messy and annoying for initiative purposes amongst other things, so the simplest solution would be to have Grapes start a new battle phase. Then there are no lingering enhancements, special abilities, etc. to worry about. Though, this could just be my simplistic side talking

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:46:41 PM »

Again using the rulebook (accessed through the REG), I would say that the battle phase ends and a new battle phase begins.

Quote

The side battle is still part of the same Battle Phase because the main battle has not yet concluded.

This quote is in reference to side battles, but if the REASON that the side battle is part of the same battle phase as the main battle is simply that the battle hasn't concluded, then the conclusion of the battle with Grapes of Wrath (or the other cards) would conclude the battle phase, as well, and then a new battle phase would begin.

This quote also suggests that it is possible to have more than one battle phase, which is part of the question presented here...

Smokey · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:50:08 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:46:41 PM

Again using the rulebook (accessed through the REG), I would say that the battle phase ends and a new battle phase begins.

Quote
The side battle is still part of the same Battle Phase because the main battle has not yet concluded.

This quote is in reference to side battles, but if the REASON that the side battle is part of the same battle phase as the main battle is simply that the battle hasn't concluded, then the conclusion of the battle with Grapes of Wrath (or the other cards) would conclude the battle phase, as well, and then a new battle phase would begin.

This quote also suggests that it is possible to have more than one battle phase, which is part of the question presented here...

It would appear, that recently Ken has solved more ruling problems than anyone else.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:51:20 PM »

Quote

My 2 cents is that it would start a new battle phase. It is my understanding that enhancements, unless discarded by a special ability, are only sent to the discard pile at the end of the battle phase. As such, either Grapes starts a new battle phase and all enhancements are sent to the discard pile and all ongoing abilities end, or Grapes starts a new battle in which case all enhancements stay on the field possibly usable if a character of matching brigade is used in the new battle. I don't like the idea of enhancements sticking around for the next battle, that would be messy and annoying for initiative purposes amongst other things, so the simplest solution would be to have Grapes start a new battle phase. Then there are no lingering enhancements, special abilities, etc. to worry about. Though, this could just be my simplistic side talking Tongue

Interesting abilities at work here. Grapes artifically ends a battle, Discarding the evil character and shuffling all remaing characters into decks. Then it checks to see if the conditions are met to allow for another battle to happen.

Note a few things here. Since it is not the end of the battle phase, but a new battle is being started, that all ongoing effects that last to the end of the battle phase, such as a negate all, are still in effect. Grapes starts a new battle, not a new phase or turn like A New Beginning does.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:52:48 PM »

I guess I've been looking at the rule book lately.

I don't have any ruling authority, though, so it could still be ruled the other way.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:53:07 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:46:41 PM

Again using the rulebook (accessed through the REG), I would say that the battle phase ends and a new battle phase begins.

Quote
The side battle is still part of the same Battle Phase because the main battle has not yet concluded.

This quote is in reference to side battles, but if the REASON that the side battle is part of the same battle phase as the main battle is simply that the battle hasn't concluded, then the conclusion of the battle with Grapes of Wrath (or the other cards) would conclude the battle phase, as well, and then a new battle phase would begin.

This quote also suggests that it is possible to have more than one battle phase, which is part of the question presented here...

What this is really saying is that there can be multiple battles in the same Phase. Since Grapes is referencing the start of a new battle, but not a new phase, then the battle it begins would be in the same phase.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:54:10 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:52:48 PM

I guess I've been looking at the rule book lately. I don't have any ruling authority, though, so it could still be ruled the other way.

You and me both, brother. You and me both.

browarod · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:57:57 PM »

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 13, 2009, 09:53:07 PM

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:46:41 PM
Again using the rulebook (accessed through the REG), I would say that the battle phase ends and a new battle phase begins.

Quote
The side battle is still part of the same Battle Phase because the main battle has not yet concluded.

This quote is in reference to side battles, but if the REASON that the side battle is part of the same battle phase as the main battle is simply that the battle hasn't concluded, then the conclusion of the battle with Grapes of Wrath (or the other cards) would conclude the battle phase, as well, and then a new battle phase would begin.

This quote also suggests that it is possible to have more than one battle phase, which is part of the question presented here...

What this is really saying is that there can be multiple battles in the same Phase. Since Grapes is referencing the start of a new battle, but not a new phase, then the battle it begins would be in the same phase.

I disagree. "Same battle phase" seems to me indicative of multiple battle phases not multiple battles. We already know multiple battles can occur simultaneously due to side battle cards, etc. It would be pointless to clarify such in this way. The above rulebook quote, to me, is defining exactly what it says: battle phases, not battles.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2009, 10:08:47 PM »

Quote

I disagree. "Same battle phase" seems to me indicative of multiple battle phases not multiple battles. We already know multiple battles can occur simultaneously due to side battle cards, etc. It would be pointless to clarify such in this way. The above rulebook quote, to me, is defining exactly what it says: battle phases, not battles.

This statement is completely ignoring what the rules say.

Quote

The side battle is still part of the same Battle Phase because the main battle has not yet concluded.

We are talking about the Battle Phase, wherein there is a main battle and a side battle. one Phase, two battles. The side battle would have to have been started by the SA on a card played during the main battle, or else there would only be one phase one battle.

That seems odd to me in the arguement that it starts a new phase is that in order for Grapes to be played in this instance, it requires you to have been in the Battle phase in order to play it, indicitive of the fact that KoT is a blocking EC. When you play a card that starts a new battle, the phase in which it is played never ends, therefore you are in the same phase with a new battle being began.

Otherwise, using this logic:

Quote

This quote is in reference to side battles, but if the REASON that the side battle is part of the same battle phase as the main battle is simply that the battle hasn't concluded, then the conclusion of the battle with Grapes of Wrath (or the other cards) would conclude the battle phase, as well, and then a new battle phase would begin.

We could then say that since the side battle has concluded, the main battle is now in a new phase, and therefore all ongoing abilites in the main battle would end and not be able to activate again, as the characters are already in the battle. But that is not the case. When the side battle concludes, we are still in the same phase, and the main battle continues, therefore the conclusion of the battle cannot be the only factor in ending the Battle phase.

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2009, 10:28:26 PM »

Grapes ends the current battle whereas side battle cards do not. It's not the end of any battle that ends the battle phase, it's the ending of all currently open battles. Side battles ending lead back to the main battle, thus the same battle phase. Grapes does not lead back to a main battle, thus the possibility for a new battle phase.

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Author Topic: Grapes vs. KoT (Read 5017 times)

browarod

browarod

browarod