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Author Topic: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle  (Read 1255 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« on: January 27, 2012, 12:58:18 AM »
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Grapes of Wrath (TP)

Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle. • Errata: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle [return] all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Revelation 19:15 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

It's been widely understood up to this point that Grapes of Wrath can be played on an Evil Character after no heroes remain in battle, before the Evil Character returns to territory. I've seen it played this way many a time, and I've never understood why exactly this is. The way I see it, there are two possibilities, neither of which necessarily sit right with me:

  • This is allowed based on the precedent set by the ruling that states that actions can be taken after an evil character is discarded by special ability, before the hero can rescue a Lost Soul (examples include Christian Martyr, Unholy Writ, Gates of Hell, Unknown Nation, etc). My main problem with this idea is that the Hero remains in battle until removed from battle, the Hero has rescued a soul, or the battle challenge ends (if no souls can be rescued). An Evil Character has no such reason to stay in battle, and thus, would probably have left battle before Grapes can be played.

  • Grapes being played during the Battle Resolution. This one, if it is indeed the logic used, is absolutely wrong. This is explained further in the Battle Resolution entry of the REG.

    Any insight on this? Why is this allowed?
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 01:03:55 AM »
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By the same token an EC has no "reason" to stay in battle once a lost soul has been buried but the other person has the chance to play harvest time....

that's the best I could come up with....
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 01:07:01 AM »
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Quote from: lp670sv on January 27, 2012, 01:03:55 AM
By the same token an EC has no "reason" to stay in battle once a lost soul has been buried but the other person has the chance to play harvest time....

that's the best I could come up with....

The battle would still continue as a battle challenge, so that doesn't set a good precedent.
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Offline galadgawyn

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 01:08:52 AM »
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The first one.  I'm not sure from memory on the exact wording of the rules but that is basically right.  I think there is something written about the battle not ending until both parties acknowledge it. 

Besides Grapes wasn't the first instance of playing something after the hero is gone.  It didn't (and still doesn't) come up as often but occasionally you might want to use Angel of the Lord on the evil character before they return to territory and protection.  There is also the fact that they may come up with cards in the future that are the good equivalent to Unknown Nation.  I think good battle extenders might be interesting.  They help against all the CBN stuff.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 01:09:10 AM »
+1
There's nothing really complicated here. There's no "reason" for you to draw 3 cards at the start of your turn, it's just a part of the game. In the same way, the battle doesn't move to resolution until both players are done playing dominants and using activated abilities. That's just a part of the game.

Bearing that in mind, turn it on its head. What "reason" does an Evil Character have to just leave battle before battle resolution?
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »
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Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 27, 2012, 01:07:01 AM
Quote from: lp670sv on January 27, 2012, 01:03:55 AM
By the same token an EC has no "reason" to stay in battle once a lost soul has been buried but the other person has the chance to play harvest time....

that's the best I could come up with....

The battle would still continue as a battle challenge, so that doesn't set a good precedent.

I think the rescuer chooses when the battle ends though in a sense? I really don't know these are just my guesses.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 01:14:01 AM »
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The rule is that battle moves to resolution either when moved there by a SA or when both players, not just the rescuer, are done playing cards or using activated abilities.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 01:14:45 AM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 27, 2012, 01:09:10 AM
There's nothing really complicated here. There's no "reason" for you to draw 3 cards at the start of your turn, it's just a part of the game. In the same way, the battle doesn't move to resolution until both players are done playing dominants and using activated abilities. That's just a part of the game.

From the REG: "The battle phase ends when the last enhancement is played and the battle is resolved."

Unless that last part would include the playing of dominants, there's not much to suggest that dominants are allowed to be played.

Quote
Bearing that in mind, turn it on its head. What "reason" does an Evil Character have to just leave battle before battle resolution?

I misspoke. A better way to put it would be that the battle would move straight to Battle Resolution.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 01:17:37 AM »
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That REG quote is correct but misleading. The battle phase ends when after battle resolution. However, that quote does not describe what moves a battle into battle resolution. The bit about Enhancements could be completely left out of the sentence without changing its meaning, and I'm not sure why its there.

If the mechanism for moving to battle resolution is not in the REG, it needs to be.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 01:20:45 AM »
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Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification Pol.
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Offline Scoobug

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2012, 09:50:16 AM »
-1
The way I see it you should be able to play dominants after battle but before the evil character returns to territory because in the rule book the definition of dominant is " A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played regardless of initiative or turn." Which means you can play it whenever you want, so I think that if you play your dominant before they can put their EC back in their territory, it should take effect.  :)
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Grapes of Wrath Post-Battle
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 12:50:47 PM »
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They're not allowed to "put their EC back" until you're done playing during the battle phase.
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