Author Topic: Grapes and Tying (Read 6267 times)

The Guardian · « **on:** September 07, 2009, 06:32:00 PM »

From my experience, many people are under the impression that Grapes grants a second rescue even if two players are tied for the most LS. Apparently this was not how it was ruled at Nationals by Bryon and Tim, but they both missed the discussion that took place awhile ago.

For now, consider this issue to be "under review."

Master KChief · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2009, 06:34:56 PM »

so continue playing it as in the case of a tie, the player using grapes gets to make another rescue?

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2009, 06:49:02 PM »

Quote

If 2 players have the same highest number of redeemed souls, they are tied for the most redeemed souls. In those cases, Grapes of Wrath does not allow an additional rescue attempt, since that player has the most Redeemed Souls.

This is a quote from Bryon in the playtester section of the forum so right now I'm not sure there is an official ruling. Schaef was the only playtester to post in the discussion (though Eric Berkenpas said Mike agreed with Schaef). I would expect this to be officially ruled on before this weekend's tournaments. As for online RooT games, you may need to discuss it with your opponent before the game starts.

redemption99 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2009, 07:28:54 PM »

...the arguement on this is kinda silly...

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2009, 08:24:14 PM »

All I know is that "most" is defined as superlative in my dictionary, which means above all else/others.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on September 07, 2009, 08:24:14 PM

All I know is that "most" is defined as superlative in my dictionary, which means above all else/others.

IMHO, this one is pretty obvious.

redemption99 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2009, 08:28:31 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on September 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on September 07, 2009, 08:24:14 PM
All I know is that "most" is defined as superlative in my dictionary, which means above all else/others.
IMHO, this one is pretty obvious.

yea, two ppl can't have 'the most' since 'the most' implies one being more than the other.

everytribe · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2009, 09:07:29 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on September 07, 2009, 06:49:02 PM

Quote
If 2 players have the same highest number of redeemed souls, they are tied for the most redeemed souls. In those cases, Grapes of Wrath does not allow an additional rescue attempt, since that player has the most Redeemed Souls.

IMHO its pretty obvious that if I have 4 LS and another player has 4 LS we both have the most.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2009, 09:18:51 PM »

English usage has "most" as a superlative, which generally indicates the singular greatest amount. This would mean that if you do not have more (relative) souls than your opponent you also cannot have "most" (superlative), but if you do have more than your opponent then you have the most.

Redemption usage, on the other hand, can make a tie be a PC "you both have the most" and I'm perfectly willing to abide by that ruling. It would actually be consistent with the new "who goes first" rule, where if two players are tied they flip a coin or something to determine who goes first. In a multi-player game, if two players (or more) are tied for the "most," they are the only ones who are involved in the tiebreaker.

How's that for arguing out of both sides of my mouth?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2009, 09:41:47 PM »

Quote from: everytribe on September 07, 2009, 09:07:29 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on September 07, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
Quote
If 2 players have the same highest number of redeemed souls, they are tied for the most redeemed souls. In those cases, Grapes of Wrath does not allow an additional rescue attempt, since that player has the most Redeemed Souls.

IMHO its pretty obvious that if I have 4 LS and another player has 4 LS we both have the most.

Yes, the group of people with more lost souls than any other player besides each other has the most, but looking at each individual person, each one has more than everyone but the others, meaning neither one player has the most. Since Grapes refers to the player (si) who has the most, I would say that if anyone has as much or more than that one player, that one player does not have the most. Bottom line: Keep in mind that we are talking about one person.

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2009, 09:49:59 PM »

As I said, it's under review by Rob and playtest group.

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:09:10 AM »

Quote from: CactusRob on September 09, 2009, 06:53:35 AM

When a special ability on a card requires "the most" then "the most" needs to equal more than any other player.

Rob has ruled, a tie grants an extra rescue if Grapes of Wrath is played. Let's move forward.

redemption99 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:10:36 AM »

juhnkect · « **Reply #13 on:** September 09, 2009, 01:22:48 PM »

oh gosh. yay for the OP card of TeP. knew this set was too good to be true

*insert more grumbling*

RoyCannaday · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2009, 01:30:15 PM »

Good I was thinking of takeing it out of my
deck...

But I'll keep it in for a lil wile longer...

I always end up discarding it....

everytribe · « **Reply #15 on:** September 09, 2009, 01:38:07 PM »

That works for me. Good to have a final ruling.

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** September 09, 2009, 01:52:41 PM »

Althought I though the ruling would go the other way, I like to see a good Dominant get a ruling that favors the offense.

Bryon · « **Reply #17 on:** September 09, 2009, 02:29:02 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on September 09, 2009, 01:52:41 PM

Althought I though the ruling would go the other way, I like to see a good Dominant get a ruling that favors the offense.

My sentiments exactly.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** September 09, 2009, 04:01:54 PM »

I am glad of this.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #19 on:** September 09, 2009, 04:25:42 PM »

~~I am not, as I still believe this makes very little sense grammatically, but I must agree with Gabe that at least the offense wins. Still, I would like a Play As to satisfy the grammar nerd in me.~~

*facepalm*

Teaches me to make sure I know the SA of a card before complaining.....

The Schaef · « **Reply #20 on:** September 09, 2009, 04:29:27 PM »

Cameron,

I don't understand. This ruling supports the superlative definition of most, "more than all others", that BubbleBoy advocated and you agreed with.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #21 on:** September 09, 2009, 04:31:55 PM »

[mumble]Why did I think that Grapes said "if you have the most, make a new RA".....[/endmumble]

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »

i love the art
i love the verse
i love the ability that goes with them
i love the ruling

thestrongangel · « **Reply #23 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:10:28 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on September 09, 2009, 01:52:41 PM

Althought I though the ruling would go the other way, I like to see a good Dominant get a ruling that favors the offense.

I would rather every ruling on a dominant go against defense so as to allow more play styles to have a chance to flourish. Basing offenses on Dominants is a rather cheap way to play the game, imho.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #24 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:23:24 PM »

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 04, 2009, 05:10:28 PM

Basing offenses on Dominants is a rather cheap way to play the game, imho.

Taking this literally (which I know is not intended), I agree. Without a chance at some Dominant rescues and blocks, players who are new to the game or financially strapped would lose to those who can get all the really hot cards and Regional/National promos. This gives the poor folk a chance.

For the record, I can get any card I really want, and have most of the big promos. I lose anyway, because I'm not much of a player. However, I don't think just because you have the best, most expensive cards you should automatically have a big edge in tournaments. I like the option of some "cheap" play options. (And yes, I know Grapes isn't all that cheap, but you should play Magic...or try to buy a FSP.)

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Author Topic: Grapes and Tying (Read 6267 times)

The Schaef