Author Topic: Goliath vs. King Hezekiah/Isaiah (Read 2609 times)

RedemptionAggie · « **on:** September 17, 2011, 07:49:30 PM »

Isaiah (FF2):
Protect purple Kings from opponents. Search discard pile for a good Isaiah card and place it on deck to draw X. Good Isaiah cards cannot be negated.

King Hezekiah (Priests):
You may discard an evil Enhancement in your territory. May band to Isaiah or to a Hero with a reference from II Chronicles 29-32.

Goliath (Promo):
Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated.

The Twelve-Fingered Giant:
Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated.

Player A rescues with King Hezekiah (Priests) banded to the new Isaiah. Player B blocks with Goliath.
1) Is Isaiah returned to territory?
2) If Isaiah is returned to territory, can Player A present a new hero (with King Hezekiah)?

If Player B blocks with The Twelve-Fingered Giant instead of Goliath.
3) Is King Hezekiah's banding ability negated, or does Isaiah's protection protect his ability from being negated?

I am Knot a Blonde! · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:08:36 PM »

A. Yes, you could bring in another hero with King Hezekiah.
B.He is protected from the special ability. Therefore it would not be negated by 12FG

Drrek · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:15:45 PM »

Quote from: I am Knot a Blonde! on September 17, 2011, 08:08:36 PM

A. Yes, you could bring in another hero with King Hezekiah.
B.He is protected from the special ability. Therefore it would not be negated by 12FG

you cannot be protected from negation, he would be negated. He would be able to stay in battle from Goliath but his banding would be negated and his banding would be negated against the twelve fingered giant.

I am Knot a Blonde! · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:44:28 PM »

believe it or not, he can. He is protected from the card. The card in no way, shape or form can do anything to King Hezekiah. You would have to negate the protection, which is cannot be negated.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2011, 09:17:42 PM »

Both are correct. One can't protect from negate, unless it's CBI (the big issue with Thad) or CBN (as in this case). Hezzy can't bring a new hero into battle (he's already banded, and that got negated) but Goliath can.

So:
A) Yes
B) No, but a new hero can be added to battle with Goliath's ability
C) It is negated.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2011, 09:27:38 PM »

I suppose "with" wasn't the right word to use in 2). I know King Hezekiah can't band to anyone else, but I wasn't sure if "present a new hero" worked if there was still a hero in battle. (So the new hero would be in battle "with" King Hezekiah.)

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** September 17, 2011, 09:28:52 PM »

Yes. Also, if a giant slayer is in battle, he isn't returned, but a new hero can be presented.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2011, 02:21:46 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 17, 2011, 09:17:42 PM

Both are correct. One can't protect from negate, unless it's CBI (the big issue with Thad) or CBN (as in this case). Hezzy can't bring a new hero into battle (he's already banded, and that got negated) but Goliath can.

So:
A) Yes
B) No, but a new hero can be added to battle with Goliath's ability
C) It is negated.

SomeKittens am correct.

The_ARk · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2011, 05:20:29 PM »

So, even though Hezz is protected from effect in any way by any opponent's cards his special ability is negated. Seems to me like his ability, which is a part of him, is being effected if the band is negated. This was the basis of the debate. Is "negate" not considered an effect? If its not why cant you play DoN on Lampstand?

Side note to this question. If an opponent were to band in your own EC vs Hezz, Gideon, or any of the new "protected from opponent's cards" would the protection be in effect due to your opponent having control of your EC or would the protection be null because you own the card. Or is it irrelevant because an opponent's card caused your EC to enter battle?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2011, 06:42:24 PM »

Quote from: The_ARk on September 18, 2011, 05:20:29 PM

So, even though Hezz is protected from effect in any way by any opponent's cards his special ability is negated. Seems to me like his ability, which is a part of him, is being effected if the band is negated. This was the basis of the debate. Is "negate" not considered an effect? If its not why cant you play DoN on Lampstand?

You can't protect from negate. At all. Every. No way, no how. The way DoN is worded, the negate only targets if the artifact is discarded. Since DoN can't target Lampy for discard, it's not negated.

Quote from: The_ARk on September 18, 2011, 05:20:29 PM

Side note to this question. If an opponent were to band in your own EC vs Hezz, Gideon, or any of the new "protected from opponent's cards" would the protection be in effect due to your opponent having control of your EC or would the protection be null because you own the card. Or is it irrelevant because an opponent's card caused your EC to enter battle?

The band ability is targeting the EC, not the hero that's protected. Band away!

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2011, 07:01:51 PM »

Wait, I might be misunderstanding the question, but wouldn't Hezekiah be forced back because Goliath negates banding abilities, thus Isaiah never entered battle (technically), thus, his protection never kicked in?

MitchRobStew · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2011, 07:31:44 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on September 18, 2011, 07:01:51 PM

Wait, I might be misunderstanding the question, but wouldn't Hezekiah be forced back because Goliath negates banding abilities, thus Isaiah never entered battle (technically), thus, his protection never kicked in?

You can't indirectly negate a cbi or cbn ability.

Josh · « **Reply #12 on:** September 18, 2011, 10:26:19 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 18, 2011, 06:42:24 PM

Quote from: The_ARk on September 18, 2011, 05:20:29 PM
So, even though Hezz is protected from effect in any way by any opponent's cards his special ability is negated. Seems to me like his ability, which is a part of him, is being effected if the band is negated. This was the basis of the debate. Is "negate" not considered an effect? If its not why cant you play DoN on Lampstand?
You can't protect from negate. At all. Every. No way, no how. The way DoN is worded, the negate only targets if the artifact is discarded. Since DoN can't target Lampy for discard, it's not negated.

To expand on SK's post, protect abilities protect cards from effects. Negates target abilities, not cards. Isaiah protects Hezzy from effects, such as evil enhancements and Dominants, but he can't protect Hezzy's ability from negation.

slugfencer · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »

I guess where I'm confused at is:
Isaiah's protection o Hezzy is CBN, so how can you negate that? I thought CBN meant it CBN?
Help?!!

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2011, 01:45:58 PM »

The protection can't be negated, so Iron Pan will do nothing. However, protection only protects the character, not the character's ability. Most abilities (capture, discard, pie to face) target the character, but negate is special in that it targets the ability. That help?

slugfencer · « **Reply #15 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:09:07 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 20, 2011, 01:45:58 PM

The protection can't be negated, so Iron Pan will do nothing. However, protection only protects the character, not the character's ability. Most abilities (capture, discard, pie to face) target the character, but negate is special in that it targets the ability. That help?

iron pan?
Ah sorry I was referring to the original question-Goliath/12 fingers effectively negating the Isaiah-hez band?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:10:11 PM »

Iron Pan was just an example of something that will negate protection, unrelated to the original problem.

slugfencer · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2011, 03:01:23 PM »

Ah thanks for the explanation.

So because protection isnt covering hez ability, it can be negated so it technically gets around the CBN on isaiah?? Confusing but at least it's an answer. Thanks!

browarod · « **Reply #18 on:** September 20, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »

No, it doesn't get around the CBN on Isaiah. Isaiah's protection of Hez remains even if you negate Hez's ability and Isaiah is no longer banded into battle.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #19 on:** September 21, 2011, 09:24:12 AM »

Quote from: slugfencer on September 20, 2011, 03:01:23 PM

Ah thanks for the explanation.
So because protection isnt covering hez ability, it can be negated so it technically gets around the CBN on isaiah?? Confusing but at least it's an answer. Thanks!

Right, because protection never protects a special ability.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #20 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:08:46 AM »

The reason you're getting confusing answers is it appears that you're asking two questions at once. Do 12FG negate Hezekiah's band? Yes. Does he "get around" Isaiah's CBN? No. There's a reason we have terminology in redemption, and using any sort of analogous language instead of the defined terms is going to lead to confusion.

slugfencer · « **Reply #21 on:** September 21, 2011, 03:07:41 PM »

It makes a bit more sense, but trying to explain all that to a younger kiddo is tough when my old self has trouble wrapping my own brain around it!

Thanks everybody!

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Author Topic: Goliath vs. King Hezekiah/Isaiah (Read 2609 times)

Chronic Apathy

slugfencer

slugfencer

slugfencer

browarod

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