Author Topic: Goliath and Weapons (Read 1889 times)

Minion of Jesus · « **on:** April 14, 2014, 12:18:47 PM »

Okay, this recent talk of Goliath has brought up a question.

If Goliath has, say, Lahmi's Spear (new version) and he blocks a hero, can I wait to use the ability on the spear until my opponent presents a new hero, or do I have to use it as soon as the first hero enters battle?

Goliath:
Return a heroes in battle to owners territory (except giant slayers) holder may present a new hero. Blah blah blah...

Lahmi's Spear
Discard this card to discard a hero.

DrowningFish · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2014, 12:33:07 PM »

Lahmis spear doesn't default to in play. So just discard a second hero before he gets to bring in a new hero

browarod · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2014, 12:39:42 PM »

Character abilities, except banding and CtB/R, always completely finish before any weapons they may be carrying. I don't think Goliath's ability is considered a CtR ability so I believe his ability would carry out completely before his weapon would. As such I don't see why you couldn't use Lahmi's Spear to then discard the new Hero they present.

Josh · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2014, 12:45:40 PM »

Pending abilities follow a structured path each battle. I'm going off of memory, but it is approximately:

1. Character abilities, except abilities that add characters to battle and gained abilities
2. Gained abilities, except abilities that add characters to battle
3. Weapons, except abilities that add characters to battle
4. Banding abilities
5. Choose the rescuer/blocker abilities

If multiple abilities fall in the order above, they go in the order that they are printed on the card.

Example: Goliath blocks with Lahmi's Spear. Goliath and Lahmi's Spear are now pending. First, all heroes are kicked out of battle (ability type 1). Next, all draw, play, and banding abilities are negated (ability type 1, but later on Goliath's card). Then Lahmi's Spear goes off (ability type 3). Last, opponent may present a new hero (ability type 5).

browarod · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:07:41 PM »

I don't think Goliath's ability is a choose the rescuer ability, it's a present, so I think it would completely entirely in step 1. I realize that steps 1-3 say "except abilities that add characters to battle" but there is no later stipulation for present abilities to activate so I'd rule that Goliath completes entirely before the weapon.

Not 100% sure, though.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2014, 04:38:50 PM »

Present is an ability that adds a character to battle, but it was formalized more or less when Taunt was made, and that order of abilities is old. Present abilities should activate at the same time as CTR and CTB, after banding abilities. At the very least, it must go after weapons, as it adds a character to battle explicitly and exclusively (unlike the previous discussions on add-to-battle).

Therefore, the order is:

1. Goliath returns all heroes in battle (if able) to territory.
2. Goliath negates all band, draw, and play abilities (done this way due to order on the card, and note that we skipped the present for reasons explained above).
3. Any weapons on Goliath activate, and in this case you may use Lahmi's Spear if desired.
4. Present ability completes, allowing opponent to present a hero.

Fin.

browarod · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2014, 05:32:26 PM »

I can jive with that. I don't much care where it goes as long as its place is clearly stated.

So what does this mean for the original question? You cannot use Goliath + Lahmi's Spear as an auto-block to discard the character they present.

Praeceps · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2014, 07:57:44 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2014, 05:32:26 PM

I can jive with that. I don't much care where it goes as long as its place is clearly stated.

So what does this mean for the original question? You cannot use Goliath + Lahmi's Spear as an auto-block to discard the character they present.

True, but if they only have one other hero, if you discard the one who hasn't been in battle yet it's an auto-block.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2014, 08:05:28 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on April 14, 2014, 07:57:44 PM

Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2014, 05:32:26 PM
I can jive with that. I don't much care where it goes as long as its place is clearly stated.

So what does this mean for the original question? You cannot use Goliath + Lahmi's Spear as an auto-block to discard the character they present.

True, but if they only have one other hero, if you discard the one who hasn't been in battle yet it's an auto-block.

As long as the character(s) from the original battle was(were) unique

Generic characters can enter battle any number of times, no need to reset them either.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2014, 08:22:19 PM »

Also if they have a Hero in hand they could present that as well even if you discarded their only Hero from play. Present abilities, like banding or initiating a battle, allow a character to come from hand or play.

Praeceps · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2014, 04:49:09 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 14, 2014, 08:05:28 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on April 14, 2014, 07:57:44 PM
Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2014, 05:32:26 PM
I can jive with that. I don't much care where it goes as long as its place is clearly stated.

So what does this mean for the original question? You cannot use Goliath + Lahmi's Spear as an auto-block to discard the character they present.

True, but if they only have one other hero, if you discard the one who hasn't been in battle yet it's an auto-block.

As long as the character(s) from the original battle was(were) unique Generic characters can enter battle any number of times, no need to reset them either.

Goliath says "new hero" so you couldn't re-enter the hero just kicked out, could you?

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:04:01 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on April 15, 2014, 04:49:09 PM

Goliath says "new hero" so you couldn't re-enter the hero just kicked out, could you?

That wording just indicates a Present ability. It does not preclude any heroes from the original battle from reentering it, that is done normally by the unique character rules. Someone generic like Armorbearer could reenter (though that would be silly most of the time, since he cannot band). You can Present from hand or territory.

Praeceps · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:58:15 PM »

I thought the "Opponent may present..." indicated a present ability and the "...new Hero" indicated what could be presented.

Just for clarification:

Goliath - Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2014, 07:04:58 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on April 15, 2014, 06:58:15 PM

I thought the "Opponent may present..." indicated a present ability and the "...new Hero" indicated what could be presented.

Just for clarification:

Goliath - Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated.

It does not restrict the hero, or it would say that the the hero returned could not enter battle. That would be my ruling. It is consistent with how other Present abilities are worded, as far as I know.

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Author Topic: Goliath and Weapons (Read 1889 times)

Minion of Jesus

Goliath and Weapons

DrowningFish

Re: Goliath and Weapons

browarod

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Josh

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browarod

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Redoubter

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browarod

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Praeceps

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browarod

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Praeceps

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Redoubter

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Redoubter

Re: Goliath and Weapons