Author Topic: Goliath and The Long Day (Read 6034 times)

Noah · « **on:** December 18, 2012, 08:50:19 PM »

If I start a rescue attempt, get blocked by Goliath, add a blue hero, have initiative, play the long day, lose the battle, and start a new rescue attempt, does Goliath still negate all band, draw and play abilities in the second rescue attempt?

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2012, 09:01:24 PM »

I dont think so. it is a seperate battle.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2012, 11:36:41 PM »

No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same character cant enter battle more than once per turn.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2012, 12:22:12 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 18, 2012, 11:36:41 PM

No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same unique character cant enter battle more than once per turn.

FTFY

(note, generic characters can enter battle any number of times per turn)

Noah · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2012, 09:57:03 AM »

Okay, thanks. One more question. If the blue character is Soldier of God and I play Warrior's spear in the first battle and put a lost soul in play, does warrior's spear get discarded before the second battle if I play stillness to withdraw from the first battle?

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2012, 09:58:51 AM »

It is still discarded. If you get a lost soul, it is discarded at the end of that battle.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2012, 10:06:29 AM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on December 19, 2012, 09:58:51 AM

It is still discarded. If you get a lost soul, it is discarded at the end of that battle.

I don't believe that is true. If he played Stillness, then Warrior's Spear is no longer in play at the end of battle, and therefore cannot be targeted for discard.

Chris · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2012, 02:56:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 19, 2012, 12:22:12 AM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 18, 2012, 11:36:41 PM
No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same unique character cant enter battle more than once per turn.
FTFY
(note, generic characters can enter battle any number of times per turn)

Unless the rule was changed, generic characters have to hit deck before they can enter battle a second time.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2012, 07:36:28 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 19, 2012, 10:06:29 AM

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on December 19, 2012, 09:58:51 AM
It is still discarded. If you get a lost soul, it is discarded at the end of that battle.

I don't believe that is true. If he played Stillness, then Warrior's Spear is no longer in play at the end of battle, and therefore cannot be targeted for discard.

Disagree. It has the same result as a Survivor being pulled out of any location if its ability triggers and was not prevented. If he is removed from game, discarded, or even shuffled by something like Two Bears, his capture to opponent's LOB would still occur. By this same logic, an active WS that has the effect trigger completes and is discarded.

Quote from: Chris on December 19, 2012, 02:56:25 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on December 19, 2012, 12:22:12 AM
Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 18, 2012, 11:36:41 PM
No. It is a seperate battle phase, much like Grapes of Wrath. However, remember that the same unique character cant enter battle more than once per turn.
FTFY
(note, generic characters can enter battle any number of times per turn)

Unless the rule was changed, generic characters have to hit deck before they can enter battle a second time.

That was changed before last season. See ruling HERE.

Chris · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2012, 07:53:33 PM »

I'm not convinced that that's a full rule change. Can an Elder can confirm for me?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2012, 08:38:41 PM »

I would like an Elder verification of Redoubter's other statement.

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »

Quote from: Chris on December 20, 2012, 07:53:33 PM

I'm not convinced that that's a full rule change. Can an Elder can confirm for me?

Which ruling are you talking about, the generics entering battle more than once in a turn one? I'm just guessing that from how the conversation proceeded, but that has been the rule since Gabe posted it here on 8/14/11. It has been used by Elders to make rulings many times since and is official, which is why it was added to the list of official rule changes. Note that this thread had more rulings than that one, and was for the changes prior to the season.

If you didn't mean that rule, just ignore all that and see below

I honestly wasn't sure from your post, and wanted to be sure

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 20, 2012, 08:38:41 PM

I would like an Elder verification of Redoubter's other statement.

I base the statement that WS would still be discarded on rulings like this one or this one that, no matter where the card ends up (even if removed from the game, which is the most extreme example that has been confirmed), their abilities complete. In the case of cards like PG Panic Demon or Assyrian Survivor, their place and capture abilities complete no matter where they ended up.

Similarly, Warrior's Spear had a discard clause on it which, if triggered and never undone, will complete regardless of where it ends up.

Chris · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2012, 12:54:09 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 21, 2012, 12:51:36 AM

Quote from: Chris on December 20, 2012, 07:53:33 PM
I'm not convinced that that's a full rule change. Can an Elder can confirm for me?
Which ruling are you talking about, the generics entering battle more than once in a turn one? I'm just guessing that from how the conversation proceeded, but that has been the rule since Gabe posted it here on 8/14/11. It has been used by Elders to make rulings many times since and is official, which is why it was added to the list of official rule changes. Note that this thread had more rulings than that one, and was for the changes prior to the season.

I was referring to that rule. As far as I know, the rule remains that generics must first hit deck. That's how I've seen it ruled (though admittedly I have no idea if an Elder was involved) multiple times on the forums since then. It's possible that I simply somehow missed this, but all the same, I would like to get verification, as I have been under the impression that for the same copy of a generic character to be put in battle more than once, it must first hit the deck.

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2012, 01:12:34 AM »

Quote from: Chris on December 21, 2012, 12:54:09 AM

I was referring to that rule. As far as I know, the rule remains that generics must first hit deck. That's how I've seen it ruled (though admittedly I have no idea if an Elder was involved) multiple times on the forums since then. It's possible that I simply somehow missed this, but all the same, I would like to get verification, as I have been under the impression that for the same copy of a generic character to be put in battle more than once, it must first hit the deck.

I'm just confused, because that's the same post where they gave us all of the rule changes for the season (including deck-building rules for T2, changes to "not in battle", changes to when sites are active, etc.), was posted by Gabe, and confirmed by Prof U in that post. I can't see how it could be more confirmed since it was actually the season's rule update thread

You can also see the rule has been confirmed by searching through ruling questions after 8/14/11, it was posted or linked to in all of the threads I just pulled up.

Chris · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2012, 01:35:09 AM »

Except it doesn't necessarily debunk that a generic character must hit deck first, it only says they can enter battle more than once. A detail like that might simply have been forgotten in the post. This is why I'm just asking for Elder confirmation.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2012, 10:44:34 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 21, 2012, 12:51:36 AM

I base the statement that WS would still be discarded on rulings like this one or this one that, no matter where the card ends up (even if removed from the game, which is the most extreme example that has been confirmed), their abilities complete. In the case of cards like PG Panic Demon or Assyrian Survivor, their place and capture abilities complete no matter where they ended up.

Similarly, Warrior's Spear had a discard clause on it which, if triggered and never undone, will complete regardless of where it ends up.

I still don't think these are the same scenario. AS says "if defeated," which means it is triggered as soon as it is defeated, working similar to an instead. But Warrior's Spear says "after battle." By the time WS tries to target, the battle is over and Warrior's Spear is gone. I don't see why this would be ruled the same. This is more like an Archer scenario.

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2012, 12:23:14 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 21, 2012, 10:44:34 AM

I still don't think these are the same scenario. AS says "if defeated," which means it is triggered as soon as it is defeated, working similar to an instead. But Warrior's Spear says "after battle." By the time WS tries to target, the battle is over and Warrior's Spear is gone. I don't see why this would be ruled the same. This is more like an Archer scenario.

See the ruling on Warrior's Spear here. To repeat what Byron said:

Did the spear enter battle? yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

It does not matter whatsoever where the card ends up. Your statement that this is like an Archer is accurate, but it actually helps to prove my point. In the Archer combos, you interrupt the after-battle effect and then end the battle, and as the ability was interrupted and could not complete, it does not go off. However, if you were to play Archer, play 2k Horses and decide not to interrupt before playing an end the battle, regardless of where the Archer ended up as a result of that card he would be removed from game, period.

The difference is that the ability was never interrupted or negated. If you do not undo or prevent an ability, then it completes regardless of where the card ends up. This is consistent with the WS ruling, DOJ ruling, Survivor ruling, PG Panic Demon ruling, and all general rulings on the completion of abilities.

tl;dr If an ability wasn't stopped, it completes no matter where cards end up.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2012, 12:42:50 PM »

Yes the ability on Warrior's Spear activates and tries to discard itself, that's not the argument, the argument is whether or not the warrior's spear can target itself for discard when it is in a hand.

I would like it if it couldn't, that would be more consistent with general rules like: Targets default to play and Cards reset in hands, however it may be inconsistent with Assyrian Survivor, Panic Demon (PG) and so on, but I'd sooner have those rules changed and have consistent targeting than have inconsistent targeting and those rules kept.

A minor point, this is a very different ability than insteads, instead allows you to essentially replace one effect with another and has its own different targeting rules.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2012, 01:09:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 21, 2012, 12:23:14 PM

To repeat what Byron said:

Did the spear enter battle? yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

Warrior's Spear is still in play in that scenario, so I still do not see the connection to this scenario. Could an Elder please post? There is really nothing that Redoubter can say that will convince me otherwise (no offense to Redoubter). We are at an impasse and need third party Elder input.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2012, 04:37:56 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 12:42:50 PM

Yes the ability on Warrior's Spear activates and tries to discard itself, that's not the argument, the argument is whether or not the warrior's spear can target itself for discard when it is in a hand.

I think the key here is that it targets itself at the time it is activated (at which time it is in play). Then there is a trigger (after battle) for when to actually complete the effect.

I think that Redoubter is correct that (assuming the discard is NOT interrupted/negated) then it will happen when the trigger happens (after battle) regardless of where the card is at that time.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2012, 05:24:09 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 21, 2012, 04:37:56 PM

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 12:42:50 PM
Yes the ability on Warrior's Spear activates and tries to discard itself, that's not the argument, the argument is whether or not the warrior's spear can target itself for discard when it is in a hand.
I think the key here is that it targets itself at the time it is activated (at which time it is in play). Then there is a trigger (after battle) for when to actually complete the effect.

I think that Redoubter is correct that (assuming the discard is NOT interrupted/negated) then it will happen when the trigger happens (after battle) regardless of where the card is at that time.

But cards also reset in hands, that means that once it is in your hand it isn't the warrior's spear that targeted itself in battle, it is just a card in your hand (as far as the game state is concerned), of course I could be wrong about how the resetting in hand works.

Drrek · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 05:24:09 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 21, 2012, 04:37:56 PM
Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 12:42:50 PM
Yes the ability on Warrior's Spear activates and tries to discard itself, that's not the argument, the argument is whether or not the warrior's spear can target itself for discard when it is in a hand.
I think the key here is that it targets itself at the time it is activated (at which time it is in play). Then there is a trigger (after battle) for when to actually complete the effect.

I think that Redoubter is correct that (assuming the discard is NOT interrupted/negated) then it will happen when the trigger happens (after battle) regardless of where the card is at that time.

But cards also reset in hands, that means that once it is in your hand it isn't the warrior's spear that targeted itself in battle, it is just a card in your hand (as far as the game state is concerned), of course I could be wrong about how the resetting in hand works.

We already know that survivor (in a similar situation) gets captured after being discarded, even though he would reset in discard just as he would if he was returned to hand (and he gets captured from there too), so no, the resetting doesn't stop the ability.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** December 21, 2012, 05:53:19 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on December 21, 2012, 05:31:15 PM

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 21, 2012, 05:24:09 PM
But cards also reset in hands, that means that once it is in your hand it isn't the warrior's spear that targeted itself in battle, it is just a card in your hand (as far as the game state is concerned), of course I could be wrong about how the resetting in hand works.
We already know that survivor (in a similar situation) gets captured after being discarded, even though he would reset in discard just as he would if he was returned to hand (and he gets captured from there too), so no, the resetting doesn't stop the ability.

Like Drrek said, resetting of cards does not affect cards with similar rulings, which would extend to this card. Going through a location that resets a card does many things to it (returns it to face-value, removes counters, resets 'may be used X times' counts, etc.). However, going through these locations does not end the abilities on the cards. In addition to the Survivor and PG Panic Demon rulings, you can see similar logic in the AUtO + Provisions ruling. Even though AUtO is sent to deck, which 'resets' it in ways I explained, the CTB part of Provisions still kicks in at the appropriate point. He's not in play, he's in a 'reset' location, and yet it still completes.

The whole idea is that, one an ability has been activated and is not prevented, that ability will complete, regardless of where the actual card on which the ability was ends up, unless the card is interrupted (and cannot reactivate, such as in the case of an end-the-battle combo) or negated.

On a side note, I don't take offense YMT

In all threads referenced, there was no explicit ruling on this exact situation, just an extension of other rulings, and you have every right to not be convinced without an Elder response

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2012, 12:32:30 AM »

Quote

The whole idea is that, one an ability has been activated and is not prevented, that ability will complete, regardless of where the actual card on which the ability was ends up, unless the card is interrupted (and cannot reactivate, such as in the case of an end-the-battle combo) or negated.

Another example of this I think is when you Stalks of Flax an opponents hero and place it in your Goshen. Why does the hero still exchange even though he is protected from effect?

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** December 27, 2012, 12:07:39 PM »

I've taken the discussion on Warrior's Spear and other examples to the other side of the board. I'm not clear on Prof U's response and the logic behind his conclusion. We will iron it out there and let you know the outcome.

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Author Topic: Goliath and The Long Day (Read 6034 times)

Chris

Chris

Chris

Chris