Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Nameless on May 31, 2011, 07:13:46 PM
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Your opponent goes out with Phillip and Bartholomew, you block with Goliath, and they go back. Your opponent choses Widow to take there place. Is Goliath pushed out of battle or is he just ignored and stays in battle?
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Your opponent goes out with Phillip and Bartholomew, you block with Goliath, and they go back. Your opponent choses Widow to take there place. Is Goliath pushed out of battle or is he just ignored and stays in battle?
He is just ignored and stays in battle.
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He is ignored, but since he was already in battle, Goliath remains in battle... With infinite initiative, unless Widow's ability is negated.
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then you play bringing fear or foolish advise
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or jip, or chariots + any battle winner.
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unless he's just splashed in :)
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well splashing Goliath with no enhancements is kind of silly.
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well splashing Goliath with no enhancements is kind of silly.
I'm silly.
Go go gadget Goliath!
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jip
This is pretty much the worst idea to play on Goliath ever unless absolutely necessary.
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i find winning battles defensively pretty necessary, regardless of what happens to my ec's *cough cough uzzah*.
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Goliath is easily recurrable. Uzzah isn't. Big difference.
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the point is i take a block when available, regardless of what happens to my ec's. games at higher levels go to the person that makes the less mistakes and are usually a mere turn or two apart. its common sense you jip (on any ec for that matter) as a last resort in any battle. but letting a widow go because you refused to jip with your goliath, even early on, is a move not worth risking in the long run.
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or jip, or chariots + any battle winner.
Goliath negates draw and play abilities, so chariots is useless on him. I can't think of many black interrupts that aren't negates.
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ah, forgot about that part. you can still pull it off with asherah pole in that case. hmm, i wonder if thats why everyone is buying poles from ken now...
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So close to Evil play first....
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So close to Evil play first....
I can do it easily in Type 2, but like I have said repeatedly, I don't think Taunt is really that good because it's very limited when you can Taunt.
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Since I don't want to start a new thread I was wondering, if your opponent has wall of protetion in his teritory and you block with Goliath, can he Present a new hero?
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yes because then he is the one that is bringing the hero into battle
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No. Goliath is an autoblock against all but Giant Slayers if WoP is up.
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"opponent may present a new blocker".
yes because then he is the one that is bringing the hero into battle
I agree.
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding, choose (opponent), and side battle abilities. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: I Kings 9:15 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
See also:
• Protect
The opponent is not bringing a hero into battle. He's kicking one out. You can add another one if you'd like.
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"opponent may present a new blocker".
yes because then he is the one that is bringing the hero into battle
I agree.
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding, choose (opponent), and side battle abilities. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: I Kings 9:15 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
See also:
• Protect
The opponent is not bringing a hero into battle. He's kicking one out. You can add another one if you'd like.
So if you have $4 Coin up and I block your rescue attempt with Emperor Galba, you have to discard a card from hand because you're choosing the card to discard? When the heroes are kicked out by Goliath, a new one isn't placed in battle by game rule - it's placed in battle because Goliath's ability says so.
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Goliath's ability says
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
It says that he choses the hero so i would think that a new hero could be brought into battle
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Dove says "Opponent must Discard an Evil Card from hand or battle." A PotW in battle against a lone Hero playing Dove cannot be Discarded by it.
"Opponent may" wording is simply signposting that opponent gets to chose the target. The original card is still doing the targeting. If WoP is up, the opponent can't chose a new Hero because they're protected from Goliath's ability.
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Oh my. Goliath is even better than I thought. And I thought he was pretty good.
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You can bring in a new hero from your hand.
In theory, the new "Play As" for WoP will be in effect when Goliath becomes playable, so this will be moot, since Goliath's SA is none of the things listed in the "Play As."
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I have a feeling that Goliath will be used quite a lot in the future.
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IMO he'll be used for one major tournament then be shelved.
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I don't know about shelved, but there may or may not be much better options after nationals ;)
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I don't know about shelved, but there may or may not be much better options after nationals ;)
Better?!? Good thing I already traded him away.
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this raises concern for me as well. If Goliath is played, would he not continue to kick out the opponents hero until it was a "giant slayer". and as far as the WoP. It is the owner of Goliath that is making a new hero be presented. (Goliath ability) So i would have to say you have to add from hand due to WoP.
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this raises concern for me as well. If Goliath is played, would he not continue to kick out the opponents hero until it was a "giant slayer". and as far as the WoP. It is the owner of Goliath that is making a new hero be presented. (Goliath ability) So i would have to say you have to add from hand due to WoP.
Golaith's ability to return the Hero(es) to territory activates once and returns them once. It does not do it continually until you present a "giant slayer".
It says "opponent may present a new Hero". So who's presenting the new Hero? The opponent. That player is not stopped by their own Wall of Protection so the Hero can come from their territory.
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
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That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent. The opponent is not presenting the Hero, the opponent is choosing which Hero Goliath is bringing into battle.
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That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent. The opponent is not presenting the Hero, the opponent is choosing which Hero Goliath is bringing into battle.
Source?
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Foolish?
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That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent. The opponent is not presenting the Hero, the opponent is choosing which Hero Goliath is bringing into battle.
My bad. Pol is correct. I was shooting from the hip and hadn't read the other posts above, I was only answering sgtme1.
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding, choose (opponent), and side battle abilities.
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That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent. The opponent is not presenting the Hero, the opponent is choosing which Hero Goliath is bringing into battle.
Just to give an example of the "years of precedent."
I make a RA with Arianna, and my opponent blocks with Trembling Demon. I am not allowed to discard a card to negate TD's SA because the discard is caused by an evil card. Similarly, Sinning Hand is CBN when played against Arianna.
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That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent. The opponent is not presenting the Hero, the opponent is choosing which Hero Goliath is bringing into battle.
My bad. Pol is correct. I was shooting from the hip and hadn't read the other posts above, I was only answering sgtme1.
Wall of Protection (Ap)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this site in your territory. No character in your territory may be brought into battle by an opponent. • Play As: Protect characters in your territory from opponents' banding, choose (opponent), and side battle abilities.
Goliath isn't any of the three abilities listed in the play-as.
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That's not a Choose the Rescuer ability. It is a Withdraw/Return ability. The fact that the opponent can present a new rescuer is a separate ability that is not on Wall's Play-As list.
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That's not a Choose the Rescuer ability. It is a Withdraw/Return ability. The fact that the opponent can present a new rescuer is a separate ability that is not on Wall's Play-As list.
Ah, I see. So "withdraw" should be added to the play as for WoP.
Since I can't seem to get anything right on this thread I should probably just butt out. :)
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It actually is a CTR ability. It's just unique in that the opponent chooses the target of the CTR ability.
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That's not a Choose the Rescuer ability. It is a Withdraw/Return ability. The fact that the opponent can present a new rescuer is a separate ability that is not on Wall's Play-As list.
Ah, I see. So "withdraw" should be added to the play as for WoP.
I would rather not see it added to the Play-As. This is the exact scenario that would make such an addition a pain. If you are forcibly withdrawn from battle, but allowed to bring in a new rescuer/blocker, the your own WoP should not stop that.
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That's not a Choose the Rescuer ability. It is a Withdraw/Return ability. The fact that the opponent can present a new rescuer is a separate ability that is not on Wall's Play-As list.
Ah, I see. So "withdraw" should be added to the play as for WoP.
I would rather not see it added to the Play-As. This is the exact scenario that would make such an addition a pain. If you are forcibly withdrawn from battle, but allowed to bring in a new rescuer/blocker, the your own WoP should not stop that.
Unless it protects my heroes in battle from withdraw abilities.
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It actually is a CTR ability. It's just unique in that the opponent chooses the target of the CTR ability.
That is blatantly false and breaks years of precedent.
From the REG:
Instant Special Abilities > Choose Blocker or Rescuer > General Description
Choose opponent cards allow the holder to exchange the opponent’s character with another character. This special ability differs from Withdraw from Battle by allowing the holder to choose the character rather than the opponent.
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It actually is a CTR ability. It's just unique in that the opponent chooses the target of the CTR ability.
That's what I thought too until I read the REG entries for Choose the Blocker/Rescuer and Withdraw. The Withdraw section seems to describe Goliath's ability.
I would rather not see it added to the Play-As. This is the exact scenario that would make such an addition a pain. If you are forcibly withdrawn from battle, but allowed to bring in a new rescuer/blocker, the your own WoP should not stop that.
To not add that to the play as would make it errata wouldn't it? Whether or not "withdraw and present a new character" is listed in the play as WoP still protects from it I think.
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Gabe is correct. The original wording on WoP protects from CTR, so to not include it would be errata. Since no errata has been issued for WoP, Goliath (as well as Lion Dwelling with the Calf and similar cards) are battle-winners with Wall up (excepting a character from hand).
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Goliath (as well as Lion Dwelling with the Calf and similar cards) are battle-winners with Wall up (excepting a character from hand).
I would like elder confirmation of this quote, since Polarius' arrogance does not suffice for me.
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Goliath (as well as Lion Dwelling with the Calf and similar cards) are battle-winners with Wall up (excepting a character from hand).
I would like elder confirmation of this quote, since Polarius' arrogance does not suffice for me.
I can confirm it but with my track record on this thread (0/2 same stats as buckler, how awesome is that?!) I wouldn't blame you for requesting additional elder confirmation. ;)
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I can confirm it, too.
Just another reason not to put Wall of Protection into your deck.
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Thank you. I like to be certain going into States and Regionals. ;D
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Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia • Verse: I Samuel 17:44 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Regional Tournament)
Philistine?
Typo or what?
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maybe it means that he was from Philistia
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maybe it means that he was from Philistia
Yes. Thus, he's a Philistine.
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Guys I don't post that much anymore except when making suggestions for new cards but I felt compelled to say something here.
So let me get this straight.
We make a card (Goliath) that throws most heroes out of battle non-negatably and says (also non-negatably) that OPPONENT may present a new hero (in battle), but in our very next breath we say that well, wait a minute, the opponent really CAN'T present a new hero because his OWN Wall of Protection somehow stops him from doing so, the nearly impenetrable but nonetheless very scholarly explanation of this being given above.
How do I explain this thread to a beginning to average player (who's not a pro - maybe even a beginning adult player......gasp)?
"Hey Bob, Wall not only protects you from him, it now protects you from you!" :-)
Can anyone see how goofy this is?
This sort of thing is why I cringe when I think about trying to teach new players this game.
Let's figure out how to correct Goliath so a player's Wall of Protection does NOT interfere with that player's ability to present HIS OWN characters in battle - and yes, I'll risk it - so that I don't go NUTS trying to explain this to my 6-year-old who desperately wants a Goliath Promo... (or to my friends at Church who are interested in the game).....and I leave it to the Redemption attorneys to figure out how this should be done.
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We make a card (Goliath) that throws most heroes out of battle non-negatably and says (also non-negatably) that OPPONENT may present a new hero (in battle), but in our very next breath we say that well, wait a minute, the opponent really CAN'T present a new hero because his OWN Wall of Protection somehow stops him from doing so, the nearly impenetrable but nonetheless very scholarly explanation of this being given above.
How do I explain this thread to a beginning to average player (who's not a pro - maybe even a beginning adult player......gasp)?
Simple. Does your son understand the difference between Game Rules and Special Abilities? If not, Goliath provides a good example to explain it.
If Goliath's ability did not have the "Opponent may present a new hero" clause in his ability, then the opponent would not add a second hero to battle, since Game Rules only allow you to attack once per turn. Since it is Goliath's ability that allows a second hero to be added, the hero is being added by Special Ability. And since Goliath is the opponent's character (from your Wall of Protection's perspective), it is the opponent that is trying to add a hero to battle, not you. And this is precisely what Wall of Protection protects against. You may get to choose the target, but it is still Goliath that does the "adding to battle".
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IMO he'll be used for one major tournament then be shelved.
At the very least, people will be hesitant to include him in a deck when they know that if their opponent has 3 certain heroes in their decks, their opponent can literally get CBN rescues against Goliath each turn with zero support cards beyond these 3 heroes.
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If Goliath's ability did not have the "Opponent may present a new hero" clause in his ability, then the opponent would not add a second hero to battle, since Game Rules only allow you to attack once per turn. Since it is Goliath's ability that allows a second hero to be added, the hero is being added by Special Ability. And since Goliath is the opponent's character (from your Wall of Protection's perspective), it is the opponent that is trying to add a hero to battle, not you. And this is precisely what Wall of Protection protects against. You may get to choose the target, but it is still Goliath that does the "adding to battle".
I understand the explanation, but don't you see my friend, this is the problem. The rules of the game are becoming so complicated and counter-intuitive that you need a R.J.D. (Juris Doctor of Redemption) just to play a friendly game. And we've done it yet again with Goliath Promo. Not to mention nearly broken an otherwise fine card (Wall of Protection).
Instead of saying, "you know what, hmm, we might have made a little boo-boo with Goliath - we maybe didn't exactly anticipate the Wall of Protection problem, let's fix that," we spend paragraphs explaining to each other why this oddity really does make sense, and then convince ourselves that we ought to accept it.
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One of the things that I appreciate about this decision is that it gives people a reason NOT to put Wall of Protection in their decks. The only downside to it before was that it took up a card slot. I'm hoping that as new cards continue to come out, people will not have a certain group of core cards that they automatically put in their deck. Rock of Ages gave us a bunch of new Lost Soul cards to use, and I'd like to see more of this type of thing so that decks will be more varied moving forward.
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Don't you see my friend, this is the problem. The rules of the game are becoming so complicated and counter-intuitive that you need a R.J.D. (Juris Doctor of Redemption) just to play a friendly game. And we've done it yet again with Goliath Promo. Not to mention nearly broken an otherwise fine card (Wall of Protection).
Instead of saying, "you know what, hmm, we might have made a little boo-boo with Goliath - we maybe didn't exactly anticipate the Wall of Protection problem, let's fix that," we spend paragraphs explaining to each other why this oddity really does make sense, and then convince ourselves that we ought to accept it.
But it's not counter-intuitive. Wall of Protection does not allow your characters in territory to be brought into battle by an opponent. Goliath allows you to add a hero to battle.
Think of it this way. If Goliath was worded "Look at opponent's hand and add a hero from hand or territory to battle (opponent may choose which hero, and may choose to not add hero)", would you say that Wall of Protection would protect you against this? There is no difference between this ability and his current one, other than wording.
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One of the things that I appreciate about this decision is that it gives people a reason NOT to put Wall of Protection in their decks. The only downside to it before was that it took up a card slot. I'm hoping that as new cards continue to come out, people will not have a certain group of core cards that they automatically put in their deck. Rock of Ages gave us a bunch of new Lost Soul cards to use, and I'd like to see more of this type of thing so that decks will be more varied moving forward.
Point well taken.
I like Wall of Protection. I don't want my opponent's heroes banding to my heroes. I don't want his Egyptian Wise Men bringing all my Egyptians into battle against my OWN heroes. It doesn't happen that often, but I would think a good player would take advantage of any opportunity to use his opponent's characters: as a famous chess master once said, it is good to sacrifice your pieces, but it is better to sacrifice your opponent's pieces.
I can appreciate your point about the extra slot though. But to me the threat of being banded to is reason enough that I want to play with Wall. Maybe I'm overrating the threat. If I am, would love to hear why.
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Exactly like you said, before now, there was no downside to having Wall of Protection. It gave you protection, and there was no real cost to having it in your deck. That's all I was trying to say. :) The benefit was almost always worth the slot in your deck.
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But it's not counter-intuitive. Wall of Protection does not allow your characters in territory to be brought into battle by an opponent. Goliath allows you to add a hero to battle.
Okay, last post on this then I gotta run. From a technical standpoint, you're right. But I'm not talking about the point of view of us Redemption technicians. I've got this card up called "Wall of Protection." It's supposed to protect ME from HIM (my opponent). I'm trying to make a rescue. He blocks with Goliath, kicking my guys out of battle. Now his Goliath says I can present a new hero. But my own WALL - which is there to protect ME - doesn't let me put a hero in battle. Regardless of how it's happening, the net effect is I'm being protected from me by my own Wall. This is what's goofy about it.
Pardon the use of italics but it's hard to convey the point in writing.
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Obviously the ruling makes Goliath, already a great EC, even better. However, let's not forget:
-Goliath currently has no protection in territory from Holy Grail, Meeting the Messiah, ignore abilities, or other pre-block nastiness that can stop him from blocking.
-You can still present a new Hero from hand.
-Red kind of needs Goliath to be popular to begin having more of a strategic advantage over other brigades.
So, just like people still use TGT even though Golgotha shuts down its ignore ability, people can still use Wall; they just have to have a way to deal with Goliath. There are plenty of those.
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Thanks Prof. for the sanity check... but I still think it's an oddity (see my previous post on this thread). Nice list though of ways to stop Goliath.
Question though: if you convert him, what abilities still remain? Does he still CBN-negate band, draw, and play abilities? Maybe this is a question for a separate thread, but that would seem to be a pretty nice hero!! (10/10 that CBN-negates band, draw, and play abilities). Put up Altar of Incense or Blue Tassels and you've really got something going there.
Now I really gotta go... later.
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Thanks Prof. for the sanity check... but I still think it's an oddity (see my previous post on this thread). Nice list though of ways to stop Goliath.
Question though: if you convert him, what abilities still remain? Does he still CBN-negate band, draw, and play abilities? Maybe this is a question for a separate thread, but that would seem to be a pretty nice hero!! (10/10 that CBN-negates band, draw, and play abilities). Put up Altar of Incense or Blue Tassels and you've really got something going there.
Now I really gotta go... later.
Yes. Goliath as a Hero would continue to CBN negate pretty much anything that a Pharisees defense can do (band, draw and play). I guess it makes sense that if David had been able to convince Goliath to switch sides and fight for the Lord's army, then he would have been a pretty beastly warrior for God.
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-Goliath currently has no protection in territory from Holy Grail, Meeting the Messiah,
I like your point, and I like the list, but Philistines do have a LITTLE bit of territory protection in Temple of Dagon which holds Altar of Dagon. I know they are not used all that often, but I use them in my defense-heavy Philistine deck with decent success, since Holy Grail and especially Women as Snares are common around here.