Author Topic: Golgotha (last dance) (Read 7044 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** November 01, 2010, 08:20:32 PM »

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn.

Kindness (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate evil immune abilities. Hero ignores one evil brigade in battle. Opponent must draw 1 (or 2 if used by a Samaritan). • Identifiers: NT, Spiritual Gift • Verse: Luke 10:34 • Availability: Disciples booster packs

Im still confused about how Golgotha stops ignores, especially with cards like Kindness that ignore in battle.

I attack, opponent blocks. I play kindness ignoring EC in battle. Can they place an EE on Golgotha to negate the ignore?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** November 01, 2010, 08:25:38 PM »

From my understanding:

No. They can, however, add an EE on Golgotha to gain CBIg.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #2 on:** November 01, 2010, 08:27:30 PM »

still confused.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 01, 2010, 08:37:29 PM »

Cannot be Ignored is its own ability.

If a card cant be ignored, it cant be ignored, simple as that.

So, if a card is currently being ignored, and then it gains CBIgnored status, then its no longer ignored.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #4 on:** November 01, 2010, 08:51:34 PM »

much better. thanx

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** November 01, 2010, 10:12:40 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 01, 2010, 08:37:29 PM

Cannot be Ignored is its own ability.

If a card cant be ignored, it cant be ignored, simple as that.

So, if a card is currently being ignored, and then it gains CBIgnored status, then its no longer ignored.

Still makes no sense to me. Nothing else grants retroactive statuses, CBIg shouldn't either.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2010, 11:12:33 PM »

Can i get some examples of these?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2010, 11:13:13 PM »

As said, CBIgnored is its own ability. Don't apply CBI/N/P logic to it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #8 on:** November 02, 2010, 10:34:53 AM »

does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** November 02, 2010, 10:38:12 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on November 02, 2010, 10:34:53 AM

does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?

No, CBN/I/P status apparently doesn't matter, CBIg seems to override anything and everything else (which is the main issue I have with this whole thing). If Golgotha works the way it's described in this thread, then Ignore is effectively dead as an offensive ability.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 01, 2010, 11:13:13 PM

As said, CBIgnored is its own ability. Don't apply CBI/N/P logic to it.

Capture is its own ability, yet it shares some game rules in common with discard, convert, ignore, etc.

Also, why? Why is CBIg somehow special enough to be "its own ability"? Why is making an ability that, without the need for interrupting/preventing/negating, can stop the ignore ability on any and every card any better than making TGT in the first place? I thought we were trying to NOT make super powerful abilities with few-to-no counters?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #10 on:** November 02, 2010, 10:54:34 AM »

CBIgnored is going to bring about a LOT of regardless abilities in the future.

Daniel TS RED · « **Reply #11 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:04:59 AM »

That's why you gotta use benedictus.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:05:43 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 02, 2010, 10:38:12 AM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on November 02, 2010, 10:34:53 AM
does it matter if the ignore is CBN (aka I Am Truth)? how can i make kindness work against golgotha besides benedictus?
No, CBN/I/P status apparently doesn't matter, CBIg seems to override anything and everything else (which is the main issue I have with this whole thing). If Golgotha works the way it's described in this thread, then Ignore is effectively dead as an offensive ability.

... for now. Everyone uses golgotha in their decks right now because of how annoying pre-block ignore is. Once people think ignore is dead, they might stop using Gologotha, which means ignores will be useable again. Its going to turn into a cat and mouse game after a while, which is how it SHOULD be.

Quote

Also, why? Why is CBIg somehow special enough to be "its own ability"? Why is making an ability that, without the need for interrupting/preventing/negating, can stop the ignore ability on any and every card any better than making TGT in the first place? I thought we were trying to NOT make super powerful abilities with few-to-no counters?

It has to be its own ability because otherwise it would not even function.

Preblock ignore does not target characters in territory, and protects stop cards from being targeted. So, if it functioned as a protect, it would be completely useless against pre-block ignore, which was the whole issue in the first place. So, blame pre-block ignore for potentially killing ignore as a strategy.

*EDIT*

Also, it would be useless against preblock because, golgotha can only be used in battle... and preblock ignore is one of the first abilities to activate in battles.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:08:41 AM »

Quote from: Daniel TS RED on November 02, 2010, 11:04:59 AM

That's why you gotta use benedictus.

One use isn't enough.

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:17:27 AM »

I'm not saying it shouldn't stop pre-block ignore, my concern is that it also stops in-battle ignore completely, which was nowhere close to OP and actually a fun and viable strategy. Since we're making up game rules to make Golgotha work "properly", why can't we word said rules differently? It's easy and entirely possible to word a game rule so that it stops pre-block ignore but not in-battle ignore, which imho would be infinitely better.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 02, 2010, 11:05:43 AM

It has to be its own ability because otherwise it would not even function.

*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.

Daniel TS RED · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:18:29 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on November 02, 2010, 11:08:41 AM

Quote from: Daniel TS RED on November 02, 2010, 11:04:59 AM
That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.

You can recur it with Consider the Lilies right?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:22:54 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 02, 2010, 11:17:27 AM

*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.

This was decided BEFORE Disciples came out. See: Large Tree.

It was not a change made due to poor wording.

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »

Quote from: Daniel TS RED on November 02, 2010, 11:18:29 AM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on November 02, 2010, 11:08:41 AM
Quote from: Daniel TS RED on November 02, 2010, 11:04:59 AM
That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.

You can recur it with Consider the Lilies right?

~~Benedictus does nothing because anyone running Golgotha also has CP.~~
^Ignore please. Forgot that you can still negate even if protected.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 02, 2010, 11:22:54 AM

Quote from: browarod on November 02, 2010, 11:17:27 AM
*Split Altar and all other printed-differently-than-intended cards wave hello* It's not the players' fault that the PTB/Rob didn't word it so that it worked properly, we shouldn't be punished by having an entire deck-type murdered as a result.

This was decided BEFORE Disciples came out. See: Large Tree.

It was not a change made due to poor wording.

Large Tree, much like Hating the Light, isn't even the same ball of wax as Golgotha. They are place enhancements that, by definition, only have their abilities last as long as the card is there and unnegated. I can get rid of your enhancement and be ignoring you again, I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 02, 2010, 11:05:43 AM

Preblock ignore does not target characters in territory, and protects stop cards from being targeted. So, if it functioned as a protect, it would be completely useless against pre-block ignore, which was the whole issue in the first place. So, blame pre-block ignore for potentially killing ignore as a strategy.

I think you need to reread your cards. TGT ignores "evil brigades" and Golgotha, even as it is worded now and without any game rules that modify it, says "characters of that brigade". TGT ignores brigades, Golgotha protects brigades, where is there a problem?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:27:50 AM »

CP does not protect against negates.

Negate ALWAYS goes through protect (unless its trying to negate a CBN protect.)

Daniel TS RED · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:28:07 AM »

Well if you play benedictus pre-battle and steal their Golgotha, then it's not a problem.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2010, 11:50:05 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 02, 2010, 11:26:21 AM

Large Tree, much like Hating the Light, isn't even the same ball of wax as Golgotha. They are place enhancements that, by definition, only have their abilities last as long as the card is there and unnegated. I can get rid of your enhancement and be ignoring you again, I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.

I was talking about Cannot Be Ignored. It was not made simply because of bad wording on cards. CBIgnored was designed the way it is intentionally... you seem to think it was a quick fix to make a card work, when it was not. CBIgnored has actually existed since Angel Wars.

Quote

I think you need to reread your cards. TGT ignores "evil brigades" and Golgotha, even as it is worded now and without any game rules that modify it, says "characters of that brigade". TGT ignores brigades, Golgotha protects brigades, where is there a problem?

I argued a similar point, but to no avail. The part of ignore that keeps characters out of battle targets the field of battle, NOT characters. You cant use a protect ability to stop pre-block ignore, ever. So, CBIgnored cannot work like a protect, nor a negate. It's its own ability.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2010, 12:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on November 02, 2010, 11:50:05 AM

So, CBIgnored cannot work like a protect, nor a negate. It's its own ability.

Fine, then don't make it a protect. Semantics don't matter to me. What I've been trying to get across is this: CBIg, as it works on the 2(+) enhancements is perfectly fine, because they at least still follow the rules of enhancements, initiative, and ongoing abilities. CBIg, as you want to treat it on Golgotha, is not okay. My point below still stands:

Quote from: browarod on November 02, 2010, 11:26:21 AM

I apparently can't get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha and be ignoring you because apparently "anytime during battle" on Golgotha, and only on Golgotha, means "anytime you want, even during the resolution of other abilities" which makes it even more powerful than dominants.

Josh · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2010, 12:24:05 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on November 02, 2010, 11:08:41 AM

Quote from: Daniel TS RED on November 02, 2010, 11:04:59 AM
That's why you gotta use benedictus.
One use isn't enough.

The Centurion at Capernaum + Gathering of Angels

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2010, 12:25:21 PM »

That's waay too much trouble.

Josh · « **Reply #24 on:** November 02, 2010, 12:31:52 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on November 02, 2010, 12:25:21 PM

That's waay too much trouble.

Hence the winky face.

News:

Author Topic: Golgotha (last dance) (Read 7044 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Warrior_Monk

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Warrior_Monk