Author Topic: Golden Question (Read 2090 times)

Ammian · « **on:** October 12, 2010, 01:18:24 AM »

This game really makes me laugh at times.

Can anyone help me out here? I recently had something like this happen to me (I kid you not, this is a typical game for me):

Okay, so I send Jephthah out on a rescue attempt (I decide not to use his special ability), and my opponent sends out Possessing Spirit. Putting all questions aside as to why my opponent would have a Possessing Spirit in his deck, we proceed:

♦Since my opponent's Possessing Spirit has a 1/1 token for winning a previous battle, Jephthah (7/4) has initiative. Jephthah plays Authority of Peter.
♦Possessing Spirit counters with Treachery of Jezebel (typical).
♦Jephthah counters with Holy Ground (also typical).
♦Possessing Spirit, seeing he is infernally doomed, interrupts the battle with Dream.
♦Just to be a jerk (and in case of Coliseum Lions or something of the like), Jephthah throws down a Counsel of Abigail, redirecting Dream to my Prince of Tyrus.
♦Somewhat incensed, my opponent, who apparently has been saving cards in his hand, uses Christian Suing Another. This, of course, interrupts the battle from the interruption of the interruption of the interruption of the interruption of Authority of Peter (that's right; the last few interruptions haven't actually negated AoP, simply delayed its effect until after their own effects are complete).
♦My opponent chooses his own hero - Eve - to fight my Jephthah. Putting aside the obvious irony here (why would she be suing him?), we proceed with the new fight, keeping the other battle - and all effects put in place in that battle (like AoP and redirected Dream) - in suspension until this battle is complete. (I'm assuming Jephthah doesn't keep the numbers from his enhancements played in the battle v Possessing Spirit, as those numbers only apply to that battle, but correct me if I'm wrong on that.) (By the way, if the effects of Dream are delayed, do you call it a Dream deferred? Okay, that was a stupid joke.)
♦Anyway, Eve has initiative, so she plays Battle Prayer to get Wedding Banquet out of her discard pile. My opponent's reason for setting Jephthah up with Eve is now apparent. (That, and he tells me he has another Eve in his hand anyway).
♦I now have initiative, and I play Power of the Cross to convert my own Fallen Warrior to a red brigade hero for kicks and giggles (I need a better initiative character anyway).
♦Initiative is returned to my opponent, who plays (predictably) Wedding Banquet. He pulls a lost soul out of my deck and slaps it in my land of bondage.
♦Eve now has 13 attack. Frankly, my opponent is brilliant.
♦I play Wheel Within a Wheel and exchange Jephthah for Abishai, whose ability activates, allowing him to band to my Asahel. My Asahel already has a 1/1 counter from an earlier victory, making him 6/5. Combined with Power of the Cross, this makes my side's total defense 14.
♦My opponent acquiesces, and my side wins. We now return to the regular battle, where the other effects (redirected Dream, AoP) would resume.
♦But wait! My opponent wants to play another interrupt - in this case, a second Dream - and says that he has initiative, since technically I played the last Card (Wheel Within a Wheel/Abishai/Asahel). I did technically play the last card, and that card wasn't a dominant. Does he then have initiative?
☼If so, he would indeed be able to play the interrupt, allowing him to draw three cards and possibly draw something that could get rid of both of my heroes, making the battle a mutual destruction by special ability situation and thereby preventing the lost soul from being rescued.
☼If not, the battle proceeds and I unequivocally win (though I now have a lost soul in my land of bondage).

This is a typical game for me. I am sorry if you have a headache, but this has really been a growing issue for me. If you could clarify which it is, that would be wonderful.

→By the way, if he does have initiative, and thus is able to play Dream, what if he then uses Dream to play Coliseum Lions to discard Abishai (followed by Christian Martyr for Asahel)? When the next delayed effect resumed (the redirected Dream), after drawing my three cards, could I still play an enhancement?
→If not, could my Prince of Tyrus play an enhancement instead? Hunger would be nice.

Have a headache yet? I call this a "Dream-sequence." It happens pretty often.

Try not to go insane,
Ammian

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2010, 01:23:21 AM »

You guys are playing quite a few things wrong, but cool scenario.

Ammian · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2010, 01:30:08 AM »

Oh ...what are we playing wrong?

I'm figuring I can't play Hunger, and we ruled that he doesn't have initiative, mostly because we thought it would be even more of a headache if he did.

But the question remains: would he have initiative?

(And what are we doing wrong?)

Ammian

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2010, 02:19:38 AM »

It's Possessing Demon, not Possessing Spirit. (Not a big deal, but it's harder to figure out what's going on with no details on the cards, especially rarely used ones, and the name is wrong.)

As far as what's wrong:

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♦Just to be a jerk (and in case of Coliseum Lions or something of the like), Jephthah throws down a Counsel of Abigail, redirecting Dream to my Prince of Tyrus.

Dream has to complete. You can't play Counsel of Abigail until he's drawn and played the next enhancement or passed on that option. (If he passes, it's still his initiative.)

That's also not how redirects work. Redirects allow your hero (Jephthah, in this case) to play the redirected evil enhancement and choose the targets. Counsel of Abigail was written before redirect was clearly defined.

The side battle looks like it played out correctly. (Enhancements may or may not carry over - I think they come back from the side battle to the original battle if the character from the original battle wins the side battle, but I'm not sure.)

I think Abishai (just Abishai) returns from the side battle to the main battle (since he replaced Jephthah). His 8/8 plus whatever enhancements carry over is beating Possessing Demon's 8/9 (3/4 + 1/1 + 2/1 + 2/3), so Possessing Demon has initiative.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2010, 02:49:03 AM »

Marcus, I think you just lurk on here waiting for questions like this to answer...

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2010, 03:20:52 AM »

The fact that I'm up (and on this board) at 2 AM doesn't exactly help that perception, does it?

Here's how I think this should play out:
-Jephthah rescues
-Possessing Demon blocks
-Jephthah plays Authority of Peter
-Possessing Demon plays Treachery of Jezebel
-Jephthah plays Holy Ground
-Possessing Demon plays Dream, draws 3, and plays Christian Suing Another to make Eve fight Jephthah
-Eve plays Battle Prayer and gets Wedding Banquet
-Jephthah plays Power of the Cross to convert Fallen Warrior
--- Alternatively, you could play Counsel of Abigail here to potentially completely foil your opponent's plan, since you didn't play it in the original battle
-Eve plays Wedding Banquet
-Jephthah plays Wheel Within a Wheel to exchange himself for Abishai who bands to Asahel
--- Alternatively, you could play Counsel of Abigail here (if you didn't play it the last time I said this) to redirect Wedding Banquet and pull a Lost Soul out of your opponent's deck
-Eve is defeated, so Abishai and the enhancements (I think) return to the main battle
-Possessing Demon has initiative, since he's still being discard by Authority of Peter, so he plays Dream

I'm not real sure where it goes from there (probably Coliseum Lions, countered by Counsel of Abigail if it hasn't been played).

A couple of other clarifications:

Quote

If so, he would indeed be able to play the interrupt, allowing him to draw three cards and possibly draw something that could get rid of both of my heroes, making the battle a mutual destruction by special ability situation and thereby preventing the lost soul from being rescued.

Without playing a card that causes mutual destruction by mutual removal (i.e., Deceit of Sapphira), you can't really cause one. Aside from the fact that I think you only have 1 hero in the original battle, you'd either remove the hero(es) before Authority of Peter discarded your EC, or it would discard Possessing Demon and you'd create a faux mutual destruction by mutual removal with dominants or artifacts.

Quote

→By the way, if he does have initiative, and thus is able to play Dream, what if he then uses Dream to play Coliseum Lions to discard Abishai (followed by Christian Martyr for Asahel)? When the next delayed effect resumed (the redirected Dream), after drawing my three cards, could I still play an enhancement?
→If not, could my Prince of Tyrus play an enhancement instead? Hunger would be nice.

The second one doesn't work, since redirects don't work that way. The first one doesn't work since Dream has to complete (redirected or not) and can't be suspended over the side battle.

Ammian · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2010, 03:40:33 PM »

Thank you so much! That helps out a lot.

→A few more questions, then:

♦Wouldn't Abishai be able to re-band to Asahel when he entered the battle with Possessing Demon? If so, when would that banding occur in the sequence of events? If it happened after the AoP discard, would Asahel still get a 1/1 token, or would the battle end before Abishai's ability could activate?

♦Also, I was told that even if a character is discarded after they play an enhancement, the enhancement still takes effect; regardless of whether Possessing Demon plays Deceit of Sapphira or not, that demon is getting discarded. At best, he can hope for mutual destruction by mutual removal de facto (Coliseum Lions), official (Deceit of Sapphira) or via dominant (Christian Martyr), assuming Abishai doesn't counter with Counsel of Abishai (which he might, although putting a lost soul in the opponent's land of bondage is tempting). Would this apply to this situation?

♦Also, although I understand that Dream can't be interrupted in this situation (it doesn't give me initiative), what about situations where Dream does give me initiative (mutual destruction/stalemate with them having played the last card: Dream). If I redirect it, what does "choosing a target" mean? Can I choose myself, draw three cards and play the next enhancement? Even more, can I choose another "target" (like an evil character or something)? What is the original target of Dream? The holder? Is that the target I am changing, then? I would think so, but I still need a little clarification on this...

♦Finally, can I play Counsel of Abigail to redirect Christian Suing Another? (Maybe make it so that another hero is battling my Jephthah instead, or else just prevent it entirely.) Does Christian Suing Another give me initiative? How does that work, exactly?

♦By the way, if multiple heroes are in battle, how does Christian Suing Another work?

I think that's about it. Thank you so much for your help and clarifications!

Blessings,
Ammian

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2010, 03:55:55 PM »

Quote

♦Wouldn't Abishai be able to re-band to Asahel when he entered the battle with Possessing Demon?

No. Character abilities only activate the first time they enter battle that phase. (REG > Instant Special Abilities > Fight Each Other > Default Conditions)

Quote

♦Also, I was told that even if a character is discarded after they play an enhancement, the enhancement still takes effect; regardless of whether Possessing Demon plays Deceit of Sapphira or not, that demon is getting discarded. At best, he can hope for mutual destruction by mutual removal de facto (Coliseum Lions), official (Deceit of Sapphira) or via dominant (Christian Martyr), assuming Abishai doesn't counter with Counsel of Abishai (which he might, although putting a lost soul in the opponent's land of bondage is tempting). Would this apply to this situation?

If you interrupt the enhancement that is discarding you and get rid of all characters it can reactivate on, it doesn't take effect. If you don't interrupt the enhancement, you can't play anything else.

Quote

♦Also, although I believe you, I am curious as to why Dream cannot be interrupted. Is there some kind of dynamic text, or did the REG/Errata clarify/add something?

Dream can be interrupted, you just have to let it complete, then interrupt it. Since it allows your opponent to play another card, it makes it very hard to interrupt it. The only time you can interrupt a card before it completes is when it removes your only character from battle.

Also, Dream, by itself, doesn't give you initiative. They could play Dream, then play Great Image (under the interrupt), which doesn't effect your hero in battle, then die (by AoP) without giving you the chance to interrupt/negate Great Image.

Quote

♦Also, although I understand that Dream can't be interrupted in this situation (it doesn't give me initiative), what about situations where Dream does give me initiative (mutual destruction/stalemate with them having played the last card: Dream). If I redirect it, what does "choosing a target" mean? Can I choose myself, draw three cards and play the next enhancement? Even more, can I choose another "target" (like an evil character or something)? What is the original target of Dream? The holder? Is that the target I am changing, then? I would think so, but I still need a little clarification on this...

Since Dream allows your opponent to play the next enhancement, Counsel of Abigail may not be able to target Dream (but the enhancement played by Dream's play next ability). If your opponent plays Dream and either doesn't play the next enhancement (or there's a generic "interrupt and redirect one enhancement" card), then redirecting dream allows your character (Jephthah, in this case) to play Dream regardless of color/alignment. He would draw 3 cards and potentially play the next enhancement. I think the original "target" of Dream is your opponent's deck (the drawing) which you change to your deck.

Quote

♦Finally, can I play Counsel of Abigail to redirect Christian Suing Another? (Maybe make it so that another hero is battling my Jephthah instead, or else just prevent it entirely.) Does Christian Suing Another give me initiative? How does that work, exactly?

No. In this situation, Counsel of Abigail can't negate CSA since your opponent has initiative after the side battle and either plays another enhancement or loses the battle. If he plays another enhancement, Counsel can't target CSA, since it's not the last enhancement.

In general, you could redirect CSA if you have initiative and played Counsel in the same battle as CSA.

CSA would only give you initiative if your character (Jephthah, in this case) lost in the side battle. Since he was exchanged and won the battle, you would only have initiative if the original battle was a stalemate/mutual destruction, where I'm not exactly sure who has initiative - I think you would, since your opponent played the last card in that battle.

Quote

♦By the way, if multiple heroes are in battle, how does Christian Suing Another work?

I think your opponent chooses one of them to go into the side battle.

CJSports · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2010, 04:41:22 PM »

Ok major headache and I'm on in the middle of the afternoon i don't see how you can perseve this at 2:00 in the morning.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:44:25 PM »

Quote from: CJSports on October 12, 2010, 04:41:22 PM

Ok major headache and I'm on in the middle of the afternoon i don't see how you can perseve this at 2:00 in the morning.

Um, check the timestamps. It's actually quite obvious.

Ammian · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2010, 10:27:53 PM »

Interesting ...these answers are very helpful to me.

♦So ...what if Dream's numbers give you initiative? Can you redirect/counter it then, or does its "holder may play the next enhancement" ability dominate? And if, after drawing three cards, the opponent decides not to play an enhancement, and you just happen to have gained initiative from the numbers of dream, can you then interrupt and redirect Dream, drawing three cards for yourself, since Dream was the last enhancement played? And if so, does the opponent have to return their three cards to the deck (much like Servant Angel being forced to return the card to the top of the deck if the opponent meets him with King of Tyrus)?

♦As for Christian Suing Another, say you're in a mutual destruction/stalemate situation and your opponent plays Christian suing another. Can you play Counsel of Abishai (since you have initiative)? If so, again, how would that redirect work?

♦By the way, if Christian Suing Another does give you initiative, I want to know if, when using green brigade, I can play Sword of the Lord and have the baddie involved in another battle - one with King Rehoboam. If so, even if it's my opponent's Rehoboam, since I'm controlling him, can I choose the two heroes who fight each other? And if I do, can the heroes I chose be chosen by my opponent for Christian Suing Another? In other words, does the battle between those two heroes resolve before my opponent chooses the hero to fight me, or does it simply resolve before the hero my opponent chose fights me? And what order would these three side battles take place in? Would they be able to affect each other, or are characters in side battles considered to be out of play during other side battles (sort of like Ambush the City)?

Thank you for your immense patience,
Ammian

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2010, 10:39:02 PM »

Quote

So ...what if Dream's numbers give you initiative? Can you redirect/counter it then, or does its "holder may play the next enhancement" ability dominate?

"Play next" dominates.

Quote

And if, after drawing three cards, the opponent decides not to play an enhancement, and you just happen to have gained initiative from the numbers of dream, can you then interrupt and redirect Dream, drawing three cards for yourself, since Dream was the last enhancement played? And if so, does the opponent have to return their three cards to the deck (much like Servant Angel being forced to return the card to the top of the deck if the opponent meets him with King of Tyrus)?

Yes and yes.

Quote

As for Christian Suing Another, say you're in a mutual destruction/stalemate situation and your opponent plays Christian suing another. Can you play Counsel of Abishai (since you have initiative)? If so, again, how would that redirect work?

Not before the side battle, since you don't have initiative in the main battle until after the side battle. After the side battle, you could redirect it and choose a different hero to fight your rescuing hero. If you had multiple heroes in the main battle, I think you could also choose a different rescuing hero to go to the side battle.

Quote

♦By the way, if Christian Suing Another does give you initiative, I want to know if, when using green brigade, I can play Sword of the Lord and have the baddie involved in another battle - one with King Rehoboam. If so, even if it's my opponent's Rehoboam, since I'm controlling him, can I choose the two heroes who fight each other? And if I do, can the heroes I chose be chosen by my opponent for Christian Suing Another? In other words, does the battle between those two heroes resolve before my opponent chooses the hero to fight me, or does it simply resolve before the hero my opponent chose fights me? And what order would these three side battles take place in? Would they be able to affect each other, or are characters in side battles considered to be out of play during other side battles (sort of like Ambush the City)?

I need to find the exact wording of the rule, but there's a rule that limits the side battles to 1 (per player?) per turn. So you can't create the last battle with King Rehoboam.

Edit:
The 10A Rulebook says it is 1 side battle per player per turn, so you could play Sword of the Lord (in the first side battle, if you have initiative) to cause a side battle between EC. You can put King Rehoboam in that side battle, but he can't use his SA to cause a side battle.

The side battles would be nested - the battle caused by Sword of the Lord must complete first, then the battle caused by CSA, then the main battle. The characters are all still in play, and can be effected by card in the ongoing battle. If one of you played Deceit of Sapphira (Womens, which discards everything in the Field of Battle) in the Sword of the Lord side battle, it would discard all the cards in all 3 battles.

Ammian · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2010, 07:57:38 PM »

Sweet! Thank you so much. Your information has been incredibly helpful!

God bless you,
Ammian

Ammian · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »

"The side battles would be nested - the battle caused by Sword of the Lord must complete first, then the battle caused by CSA, then the main battle. The characters are all still in play, and can be effected by card in the ongoing battle. If one of you played Deceit of Sapphira (Womens, which discards everything in the Field of Battle) in the Sword of the Lord side battle, it would discard all the cards in all 3 battles."

→If Deceit of Sapphira is played, would one of the characters in one of the other battles have initiative to interrupt, since they would then be losing? After all, if one card affects all three battles, it should be the other way around too.

→So what if a dreaded FBN character enters the scene in one of those side-battles? Does the FBN character affect the other two battles as well? If so, how does that work?

Grazies,
Ammian

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2010, 02:37:59 PM »

There was a recent ruling that limited side battles to one per player per turn, so you can't have nested side battles anymore (or at least it's much less likely).

If a FBTN character enters a side battle, that battle becomes FBTN. If that character then returns to the main battle, at that time the main battle also becomes FBTN.

Ammian · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2010, 11:49:43 PM »

→I see ...but that doesn't make sense ...how come DoS (Deceit of Sapphira) affects everything but a FBN wouldn't? I still need a better answer for this one.

→Also, that didn't really answer my initiative question. Could someone play an interrupt or not?

♦Also, if the FBN character entered the main battle, the main battle would not become FBTN, because the rules state that a character's ability can only activate once per turn (see earlier in this thread).

Still wondering,
Ammian

Ammian · « **Reply #16 on:** October 26, 2010, 12:51:11 AM »

Come to think of it, we may need to get an elder in here. Should I start a new topic for the above two questions?

Curious as always,
Ammian

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Author Topic: Golden Question (Read 2090 times)

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