Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34337 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #75 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:05:13 PM »

leave it as is? no ones officially ruled on it yet. you have arguments supporting your side (see case no. 4563.23 Several Heroes vs. Coliseum Lions, case no. 6756.32 Obediance of Noah vs. Big EC), we have arguments supporting ours (case no. 5654.76 Third Heaven vs. Devourer). both are valid arguments, and until official say-so, i have sufficient evidence to rule my side as such at tournaments i judge.

if anything, both points seem to be contradictory of each other. *sigh* only in redemption, only in redemption...

Master KChief · « **Reply #76 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:05:41 PM »

Quote from: waffledodger on August 13, 2008, 08:04:27 PM

Moral of the story: play Gold Shield as a weapon on King Cushan-Rishathaim and prevent the negate, whatever color it is.

or naaman. wow, two nice ec's to use it on!

SirNobody · « **Reply #77 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:07:55 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 07:27:43 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Choose the blocker...are character defeating abilities.

In no way is this correct. Where do you get this?

Forcing a character out of battle is a character defeating ability. Choose the blocker after an initial blocker has been presented forces the initial blocker out of battle. Thus choose the blocker (after an initial blocker is presented as I specified) is a character defeating ability. Yay syllogisms!

Quote

Further, playing Coliseum Lions on one of several banded characters also does not defeat the opponent.

It's not about defeating the opponent, it's about defeating a character. If you have banded heroes such that Coliseum Lions removes the only hero of say Green Brigade from battle and gives the heroes initiative, you can use a green negate to bring back the green character.

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 07:31:28 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability.
How can you make that statement? This is the first time it is available in the game.

Does changing a character's brigade necessarily bring harm to that character or stop it from redeeming a lost soul? Those are the characteristics of an effect that make it character defeating (by my understanding) and Gold Shield does not satisfy them.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #78 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:09:46 PM »

Ok Im on Schaef's side with this one.

MCK, please define Interrupt for me?

If an interrupt doesnt temporarily UNDO the cards it interrupts, then what DOES it do? When I interrupt Gold Shield, I'm back to a Green Miriam.

With the way your arguing it, you couldnt interrupt Coliseum lions, because it already (ready for your favorite word?) RESOLVED and your in the discard pile now. How can you interrupt from the discard pile?

Same deal.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #79 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:10:53 PM »

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Master KChief · « **Reply #80 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:14:42 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 13, 2008, 08:09:46 PM

Ok Im on Schaef's side with this one.

MCK, please define Interrupt for me?

If an interrupt doesnt temporarily UNDO the cards it interrupts, then what DOES it do? When I interrupt Gold Shield, I'm back to a Green Miriam.

With the way your arguing it, you couldnt interrupt Coliseum lions, because it already (ready for your favorite word?) RESOLVED and your in the discard pile now. How can you interrupt from the discard pile?

Same deal.

read: maly's explanation. sweet, sweet logic ftw.

tkprr: i need a bigger hadoken.

Hedgehogman · « **Reply #81 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:15:30 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 08:07:55 PM

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 07:27:43 PM
Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Choose the blocker...are character defeating abilities.

In no way is this correct. Where do you get this?

Forcing a character out of battle is a character defeating ability. Choose the blocker after an initial blocker has been presented forces the initial blocker out of battle. Thus choose the blocker (after an initial blocker is presented as I specified) is a character defeating ability. Yay syllogisms!

Quote
Further, playing Coliseum Lions on one of several banded characters also does not defeat the opponent.

It's not about defeating the opponent, it's about defeating a character. If you have banded heroes such that Coliseum Lions removes the only hero of say Green Brigade from battle and gives the heroes initiative, you can use a green negate to bring back the green character.

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 07:31:28 PM
Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability.
How can you make that statement? This is the first time it is available in the game.

Does changing a character's brigade necessarily bring harm to that character or stop it from redeeming a lost soul? Those are the characteristics of an effect that make it character defeating (by my understanding) and Gold Shield does not satisfy them.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

For what little it's worth, I agree completely with Tim.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #82 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:15:54 PM »

I would but it looked better with smaller hadokens.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #83 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:16:58 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 08:14:42 PM

read: maly's explanation. sweet, sweet logic ftw.

Please answer yourself. I want a direct answer... >.>

Master KChief · « **Reply #84 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:20:28 PM »

i can merely reiterate what maly said in laymans terms...

you may play the enhancement (using the example) on the green brigade hero that was discarded because the initiative was transferred as a result of him being discarded. gold shield in no way whatsoever has anything to do with miriam gaining initiative to play an enhancement...she would have it regardless of WHAT color she was.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #85 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:24:15 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 08:20:28 PM

i can merely reiterate what maly said in laymans terms...

you may play the enhancement (using the example) on the green brigade hero that was discarded because the initiative was transferred as a result of him being discarded. gold shield in no way whatsoever has anything to do with miriam gaining initiative to play an enhancement...she would have it regardless of WHAT color she was.

But... you said cards MUST RESOLVE. You made it very clear in your arguments.

Quote

~~***RESOLVED***~~~

Quote

because gold shield was already resolved previously.

So... using YOUR words, wouldnt Coloseum Lions resolve before an interrupt, meaning your hero is ALREADY in the discard pile, unable to play enhancements?

Master KChief · « **Reply #86 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »

absolutely. but current rules state you may interrupt the battle if your hero is being removed from battle, which then causes you to lose the battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #87 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:35:23 PM »

Ok well... if i can interrupt CL on my way to the discard pile, I can interrupt Gold Shield on my way to converting to a diff brigade, provided I have initiative.

Master KChief · « **Reply #88 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:45:49 PM »

you're looking at the situations as two parallel examples, when they are not.

in my example, you only have initiative because of numbers, not as a result of a card i played (besides my EC itself) that is making you lose the battle.

in your example, initiative transferred as a result of my playing of coliseum lions. therefore, you can interrupt it.

again, please see case Third Heaven vs. Devourer. Even if the EC has initiative after Third Heaven is played targeting the Devourer, the EC cannot 'reach back' to a state of the game that was happening prior to Third Heaven going off and play the targeted Devourer to negate Third Heaven.

everytribe · « **Reply #89 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:52:25 PM »

Wow 7 pages on this simple of a question.

I predict that when the powers to be answer the question Miriam will not be able to play a green interrupt.

Everytribe (Multi Color Prophet, visited by the Redemption Ruling Angel)

Colin Michael · « **Reply #90 on:** August 13, 2008, 09:08:04 PM »

This is like 12 angry men.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #91 on:** August 13, 2008, 09:13:21 PM »

The woman wasn't wearing her glasses, the train made it too hard to hear. He isn't guilty.

SirNobody · « **Reply #92 on:** August 13, 2008, 09:30:39 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 13, 2008, 08:09:46 PM

With the way your arguing it, you couldnt interrupt Coliseum lions, because it already (ready for your favorite word?) RESOLVED and your in the discard pile now. How can you interrupt from the discard pile?

Um, if you've checked the origin of the current rulings you will find that, by the current rules, Coliseum Lions does in fact resolve and the hero is in fact in the discard pile before you have a chance to play an interrupt or negate to counter it. Note the whole, "instantaneous abilities must complete before any other cards can be played," thing. The reason that, by the current rules, you can negate Coliseum Lions is that negate and interrupt abilities do not have to follow the rules that enhancements have to be played on a character of matching brigade that is in battle when they are negating or interrupting a character defeating ability.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 13, 2008, 08:35:23 PM

Ok well... if i can interrupt CL on my way to the discard pile, I can interrupt Gold Shield on my way to converting to a diff brigade, provided I have initiative.

You seem to be missing the fact that there are two different kinds of abilities that are negated differently. Trying to negate a character defeating ability is different than trying to negate a non-character defeating ability. This is why negating Third Heaven, Foolish Advice, or a negate that negates Coat of Many Colors works differently than negating Coliseum Lions or Net.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Master KChief · « **Reply #93 on:** August 13, 2008, 09:44:14 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 08:07:55 PM

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 07:27:43 PM
Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Choose the blocker...are character defeating abilities.

In no way is this correct. Where do you get this?

Forcing a character out of battle is a character defeating ability. Choose the blocker after an initial blocker has been presented forces the initial blocker out of battle. Thus choose the blocker (after an initial blocker is presented as I specified) is a character defeating ability. Yay syllogisms!

on this note, would that also mean the defending player is allowed to play a negate even if the evil character they switched into battle does transfer initiative to the rescuing opponent? would that not make the REG entry that schaef quoted obsolete?

The Schaef · « **Reply #94 on:** August 13, 2008, 10:31:08 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 08:05:13 PM

leave it as is? no ones officially ruled on it yet.

Yes. Leave the ability to interrupt as it is currently played with other abilities.

Quote

we have arguments supporting ours (case no. 5654.76 Third Heaven vs. Devourer).

I already pointed out that Third Heaven is not relevant to the state of characters in battle.

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 08:07:55 PM

Forcing a character out of battle is a character defeating ability.

Forced withdrawal is a "character defeating ability" (by which I can only assume you mean "causing to lose by removal", since that term is in the rules but "character defeating ability" is not). The REG entry for this specifically draws a distinction between choose-character and withdrawal ("This special ability differs from Withdraw from Battle on page 51"). So this analogy is false.

Quote

It's not about defeating the opponent, it's about defeating a character.

Defeat is determined in Battle Resolution. Defeated characters are characters who participated in the losing side of a battle. The two are equivalent.

Quote

Does changing a character's brigade necessarily bring harm to that character or stop it from redeeming a lost soul? Those are the characteristics of an effect that make it character defeating (by my understanding) and Gold Shield does not satisfy them.

Every other instance of initiative transferred to the opponent allows them to interrupt the last Enhancement played. There is no distinction made for a "character-defeating ability" and I see no reason why such a distinction has to be made.

Quote

gold shield in no way whatsoever has anything to do with miriam gaining initiative to play an enhancement...she would have it regardless of WHAT color she was.

I already gave examples of how you can interrupt an Enhancement using a brigade no longer in battle even when the ability does not result in losing by removal. You have not answered this point, nor has anyone else in the 8 pages of discussion thus far.

Quote

but current rules state you may interrupt the battle if your hero is being removed from battle, which then causes you to lose the battle.

I already gave you multiple examples of cases where you are not stating/applying the rules correctly. See above.

Quote

Trying to negate a character defeating ability is different than trying to negate a non-character defeating ability.

See above. I have been waiting for six pages for a satisfactory answer to this. Obedience of Noah et al do not defeat a character. Else, explain to me why I cannot interrupt Obedience of Noah immediately if you replace the blocker with a 12/12 EC and have initiative to continue playing cards. Because the two concepts are wholly incompatible (and only the second is supported by the rules).

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #95 on:** August 13, 2008, 10:37:53 PM »

Quote from: J4n1ss4ry_teh_n008 on August 13, 2008, 05:40:45 PM

Scenario: Naaman w/ Gold Shield blocks King David. It's stalemate by the numbers but I decide to use Gold Sheild when it's ability activates,making King David gold brigade, which makes it my inititive by the numbers.

Is that true?

Ok, so this scenario was agreed to be true. So let's do this the opposite way.

Naaman w/ Gold Shield blocks Prince Jonathon. Naaman is winning by the numbers, but decides to activate Gold Shield's ability to make Jonathon gold brigade. So, now, both characters are 8/8 AT THE TIME OF THE INITIATIVE CHECK. So, since blocker played last card, it is rescuer's initiative.

Now, why on earth can I can a Purple interrupt (or any purple card for that matter), when the state of he battle says Jonathon is gold? It makes no logical sense that the gold Jonathan is able to interrupt with his former color, seeing as changing colors is not making him lost the battle. Therefore, he gets intiative not by removal, but by losing the battle, hence, he has no time to interrupt the instant ability that was Jonathon switching bigades via Gold Shield.

That's just how I see it.

The Schaef · « **Reply #96 on:** August 13, 2008, 10:47:36 PM »

Quote from: J4n1ss4ry_teh_n008 on August 13, 2008, 10:37:53 PM

Now, why on earth can I can a Purple interrupt (or any purple card for that matter), when the state of he battle says Jonathon is gold? It makes no logical sense that the gold Jonathan is able to interrupt with his former color, seeing as changing colors is not making him lost the battle. Therefore, he gets intiative not by removal, but by losing the battle, hence, he has no time to interrupt the instant ability that was Jonathon switching bigades via Gold Shield.

I RA with Tribal Elder banded to Jonathan, you block with Babylonian Forces bearing Swift Horses, draw two and play Coliseum Lions to discard Tribal Elder. Now why on earth can a blue interrupt when the state of battle has only a purple Hero? It makes no logical sense, seeing as discarding Tribal Elder is not making Jonathan lose the battle. Therefore, he gets initiative not by removal, but by losing the battle, hence, there is no time to interrupt the instant ability that was Tribal Elder being discarded via Coliseum Lions.

See what I'm saying?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #97 on:** August 13, 2008, 10:56:07 PM »

No, because I disagree with the ruling there. I don't see why I shuold get to play a blue negate when it's a purple hero in battle. Makes no sense. There is no blue hero in battle.

But, Golden Shield wise, Jonathon wouldn't be losing via special ability. He is losing the battle via numbers. Why should I get to use my purple interrupt just because he used to be purple a second ago?

I would go as far as amending the rules because I think that they are just ridiculous, but that's definatley not my call and definately won't happen.

The Schaef · « **Reply #98 on:** August 13, 2008, 11:01:09 PM »

Quote from: J4n1ss4ry_teh_n008 on August 13, 2008, 10:56:07 PM

But, Golden Shield wise, Jonathon wouldn't be losing via special ability.

He's not losing via special ability in my example either.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #99 on:** August 13, 2008, 11:20:54 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 11:01:09 PM

Quote from: J4n1ss4ry_teh_n008 on August 13, 2008, 10:56:07 PM
But, Golden Shield wise, Jonathon wouldn't be losing via special ability.

He's not losing via special ability in my example either.

That depends on how you look at it. I would say he is, because before the special ability of Coliseum Lions, he would be winning. After it he, he is losing. I am aware this is not how Redemption looks at it, but that's how I would see it (I think that's a fairly logical way to look at it).

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Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34337 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef