Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34327 times)

Colin Michael · « **Reply #50 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:08:39 PM »

I did, and I agree with the KChief.

The Schaef · « **Reply #51 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:09:53 PM »

The KChief's conclusion is contradictory to the rules, and invents other rules where none exist.

Master KChief · « **Reply #52 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:11:28 PM »

Quote

Everything I typed above. Did you read any of it?

absolutely, but it basically boils down to a 'you're wrong, im right' kind of ideal with no supporting arguments whatsoever. i choose to ignore narrow-minded statements.

let me break this down to you: special abilities are allowed to R-E-S-O-L-V-E before the interrupt. miriam has changed to a white hero by the time she is able to play a negate. she can not magically turn herself into green to play that negate.

The Schaef · « **Reply #53 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:15:30 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 07:11:28 PM

absolutely, but it basically boils down to a 'you're wrong, im right' kind of ideal with no supporting arguments whatsoever.

This is another completely untrue statement. I have given you numerous examples where your conclusion does not hold up under the rules. No response from you. I have pointed out where your examples are wrong. No response from you. I have pointed out where your statements of fact are flat-out wrong. No response from you. You have demonstrated in great detail what you choose to ignore, but sadly, it is not the thing you wrongly accuse me of making.

Now, at what point can we actually start talking honestly about what's being discussed?

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miriam has changed to a white hero by the time she is able to play a negate. she can not magically turn herself into green to play that negate.

Why not? None of your previous reasons make sense; do you have one that does?

Master KChief · « **Reply #54 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:19:53 PM »

how many times are you going to gloss over the fact that gold shield has already

~~***RESOLVED***~~~

and is now long gone? miriam cannot play a negate because of gold shield resolving; she can only play an enhancement later on because initiative was transferred by numbers. not because of gold shield.

not because of gold shield.
not because of gold shield.
not because of gold shield.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #55 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:21:37 PM »

It's a maturity war!

The Schaef · « **Reply #56 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:24:40 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 07:19:53 PM

how many times are you going to gloss over the fact that gold shield has already RESOLVED and is now long gone?

Grand total for the entire thread? Zero. So how many times are you going to gloss over the fact that Obedience of Noah and Coliseum Lions have already resolved and are long gone.

This is a point that I've already made and you have yet to answer. I'm not holding up this disucssion.

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miiriam cannot play a negate because of gold shield resolving; she can only play an enhancement later on because initiative was transferred by numbers. not because of gold shield.

The Evil Character and weapon were played together. Whether or not the Hero is losing because of Gold Shield's special ability is no more relevant than whether or not the Hero is losing because of Hard Bondage's special ability (hint: not).

Again, this is a point I've already made and you have yet to answer. I can't say it looks very dignified when you use huge fonts and repeated sentences to make a point I already answered pages ago. It makes much more sense to read what I already wrote long ago and answer that instead.

SirNobody · « **Reply #57 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM »

Hey,

* skips the last two pages of this dscussion *

If the last ability used in battle was a character defeating ability then you can play any negate that you can play in the current state of battle (after the character defeating ability), or you can play any negate that you could have played immediately prior to the last ability used in battle (before the character defeating ability).

If the last ability used in battle was not a character defeating ability then you can only play a negate that you can play in the current state of battle (after the last ability happened).

Choose the blocker (after a blocker was presented), Convert (from a Hero to an Evil Character), and Discard an evil card from hand or battle (if it discards an Evil Chracter in battle) are character defeating abilities. Thus you can negate based on the state of battle before or after the event.

Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability. Thus you can only negate it based on the state of battle after the abilty completes (i.e. with the new brigade).

For more information see the very old debate about Third Heaven discarding Devourer from hand (as previously referenced by Nesfeder.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

The Schaef · « **Reply #58 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:27:43 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM

Choose the blocker...are character defeating abilities.

In no way is this correct. Where do you get this?

Further, playing Coliseum Lions on one of several banded characters also does not defeat the opponent. Even skipping the previous two pages, you can see these were already brought to the table.

Master KChief · « **Reply #59 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:28:13 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM

Hey,

* skips the last two pages of this dscussion *

If the last ability used in battle was a character defeating ability then you can play any negate that you can play in the current state of battle (after the character defeating ability), or you can play any negate that you could have played immediately prior to the last ability used in battle (before the character defeating ability).

If the last ability used in battle was not a character defeating ability then you can only play a negate that you can play in the current state of battle (after the last ability happened).

Choose the blocker (after a blocker was presented), Convert (from a Hero to an Evil Character), and Discard an evil card from hand or battle (if it discards an Evil Chracter in battle) are character defeating abilities. Thus you can negate based on the state of battle before or after the event.

Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability. Thus you can only negate it based on the state of battle after the abilty completes (i.e. with the new brigade).

For more information see the very old debate about Third Heaven discarding Devourer from hand (as previously referenced by Nesfeder.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

*breathless* thank you...thank you maly.

STAMP · « **Reply #60 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:31:28 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM

Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability.

How can you make that statement? This is the first time it is available in the game. Schaef has explained that based on how similar situations are handled in the game, this new situation works the same.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #61 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:32:49 PM »

Scheaf, what does your position boil down to? You can negate based on the current or previous state of the battle, regardless of what the last enhancement was?

If you stated it, maybe I missed it - I skipped the last 2 pages, like Tim.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #62 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:33:15 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 07:31:28 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on August 13, 2008, 07:24:47 PM
Converting a hero from one brigade to another brigade is not a character defeating ability.

How can you make that statement? This is the first time it is available in the game. Schaef has explained that based on how similar situations are handled in the game, this new situation works the same.

Because of logic. In the example, Miriam is losing by the numbers, not because she's white. In absolutely no case (unless white was being ignored or something) would converting her to white cause her to be losing the battle except by the numbers.

Master KChief · « **Reply #63 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:36:14 PM »

yes, the ability to change a hero to the color of your choice is a new one, but its just logic. she is not losing the battle because she switched wardrobes. she is losing the battle because of numbers.

The Schaef · « **Reply #64 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:36:45 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on August 13, 2008, 07:32:49 PM

Scheaf, what does your position boil down to? You can negate based on the current or previous state of the battle, regardless of what the last enhancement was?

When initiative goes to you, you have the opportunity to interrupt the last Enhancement.

Based on several other existing scenarios in the game, it also seems that you can play an interrupt of a brigade no longer in battle, regardless of whether the special ability causes a loss by removal or not.

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Because of logic. In the example, Miriam is losing by the numbers, not because she's white. In absolutely no case (unless white was being ignored or something) would converting her to white cause her to be losing the battle except by the numbers.

Obedience of Noah does not cause you to be losing the battle except by the numbers.
Coliseum Lions on one of several does not cause you to be losing the battle except by the numbers.
In both cases, you can play interrupts on the outgoing character.
Your logic proves my position.

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yes, the ability to change a hero to the color of your choice is a new one, but its just logic. she is not losing the battle because she switched wardrobes. she is losing the battle because of numbers.

For what reason is that relevant as to the capacity to interrupt the last Enhancement played? It is not the case with any of the numerous other examples I have posted.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #65 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:40:21 PM »

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Obedience of Noah does not cause you to be losing the battle except by the numbers.

But Obedience of Noah forces an Evil Character out of battle, to which you may respond with an interrupt because the evil character is be removed from battle.

In the green to white Miriam case, she is not being forced out of battle.

Master KChief · « **Reply #66 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:42:02 PM »

since the 'intent' of the R&D team on some cards has been tossed around alot, maybe we should revisit it for this issue. schaef...do you have any idea on what the original 'intent' of the special ability on gold shield was meant to neuter?

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #67 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:43:24 PM »

furthermore fact or fiction?

If I play Lies on your hero, can you interrupt it?-yes. What about Sarah's Jealousy? Yes. In essence all I am doing is changing the color of the hero, even though it is someone new, the fact remains I could cause you to lose by numbers but the ability still gets interrupted. Gold Shield will work the same way, unless you make it CBN, end of story...I don't understand how we get any other result...

And while I agree about the removal from battle, by changing a color, in essence you are doing just that, removing the ability for primary colors to be played on a hero. So let's just change it to removal of anything causes a chance to interrupt, whether color, character or whatever...

The Schaef · « **Reply #68 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:44:02 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on August 13, 2008, 07:40:21 PM

But Obedience of Noah forces an Evil Character out of battle, to which you may respond with an interrupt because the evil character is be removed from battle.

No. You may respond with an interrupt because the new EC is losing by the numbers. If your opponent chose a high EC to give himself initiative, he gets to play more Enhancements and your opportunity to interrupt is gone.

Again, the notion that forcing out of battle is what allows the interrupt is not correct. Choose blocker resolves with initiative decided by the numbers, not by the removal of a character.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #69 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:45:33 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 07:44:02 PM

Quote from: Colin Michael on August 13, 2008, 07:40:21 PM
But Obedience of Noah forces an Evil Character out of battle, to which you may respond with an interrupt because the evil character is be removed from battle.

No. You may respond with an interrupt because the new EC is losing by the numbers. If your opponent chose a high EC to give himself initiative, he gets to play more Enhancements and your opportunity to interrupt is gone.

Again, the notion that forcing out of battle is what allows the interrupt is not correct. Choose blocker resolves with initiative decided by the numbers, not by the removal of a character.

Can you site the REG on this one?

The Schaef · « **Reply #70 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:48:13 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on August 13, 2008, 07:45:33 PM

Can you site the REG on this one?

Are you saying you don't check numbers for initiative after choosing a new blocker?

It is also a good strategy to NOT give your opponent initiative while replacing their characters so they can’t immediately negate it.

Master KChief · « **Reply #71 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:48:53 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on August 13, 2008, 07:43:24 PM

And while I agree about the removal from battle, by changing a color, in essence you are doing just that, removing the ability for primary colors to be played on a hero. So let's just change it to removal of anything causes a chance to interrupt, whether color, character or whatever...

yeeeeeeeah...thats really stretching it...

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #72 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:54:22 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 07:48:53 PM

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on August 13, 2008, 07:43:24 PM

And while I agree about the removal from battle, by changing a color, in essence you are doing just that, removing the ability for primary colors to be played on a hero. So let's just change it to removal of anything causes a chance to interrupt, whether color, character or whatever...

yeeeeeeeah...thats really stretching it...

Why? it seems to me to be the path of logic people are trying to go with it...

The Schaef · « **Reply #73 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:57:16 PM »

Or not change it at all, and leave it at transfer of initiative. Since that's what allows you to negate a choose-character, or the removal of one of several characters from battle, even though the ability has resolved, and even though it is not a battle-winning/ending ability.

waffledodger · « **Reply #74 on:** August 13, 2008, 08:04:27 PM »

Moral of the story: play Gold Shield as a weapon on King Cushan-Rishathaim and prevent the negate, whatever color it is.

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Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34327 times)

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