Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34693 times)

The Schaef · « **Reply #25 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 03:48:16 PM

since miriam is now white and has initiative, she can play white enhancements. so lets say for the sake of argument that she plays a slew of white enhancements that do not transfer initiative to the evil character in battle. since she still has initiative after all that, do you think its right that she now proceeds to play a green negate-last to negate gold shield?

I'm pretty sure you can't do that with choose-blocker either, so I don't know what is your point in saying it's not fair to make an illegal play.

But if you can do it with one, you can do it with both.

Besides, negating the switch would also negate all the Enhancements played in the new brigade. So that doesn't seem advisable to me.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #26 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:56:51 PM »

I think that I agree with Schaef as well.

If a hero is given initiative following the playing (and discarding) of Gold Shield, then I think that they could play a negate last enhancement in either their original brigade or their new brigade.

STAMP · « **Reply #27 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:57:33 PM »

If I play a white enhancement other than an interrupt or negate on Mirian when she is converted to white, I forfeit the ability to play a green negate-last. If at some point later on I play Blessings, guess what? Miriam is back to green and the white enhancements go bye-bye.

Master KChief · « **Reply #28 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:00:19 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2008, 03:50:31 PM

John: RA Leah, block King Tiglath-Pileser with 2kH, he plays Confusion. Leah proceeds to convert, discard, and do whatever she feels like to your territory. Since she still has initiative after all that, I *do* think it's right that she plays Bow and Arrow to negate Confusion. This is a parallel situation, and so I think the "of course not" was unmerited.

except in your situation here, leah is not trying to play an enhancement that does not match her color. big difference there, buddy.

Master KChief · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:01:54 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 03:57:33 PM

If I play a white enhancement other than an interrupt or negate on Mirian when she is converted to white, I forfeit the ability to play a green negate-last.

evidence, please.

The Schaef · « **Reply #30 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:05:41 PM »

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1) Show me how a white brigade Hero can use a green brigade enhancement.

The same way a blue Hero can interrupt when it's a green Hero that has initiative after Lies.

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2) Show me how a green Miriam, losing by the numbers is losing any worse by becoming a white Miriam.

A green Miriam that has not yet been blocked is not losing by the numbers, and if there is an Evil Character in battle, and has initiative to play gold Shield, the green Miriam cannot be losing by the numbers in that case either. Therefore, there is no need to demonstrate this scenario to come to this conclusion.

STAMP · « **Reply #31 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:09:01 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:03:15 PM

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 03:57:33 PM
If I play a white enhancement other than an interrupt or negate on Mirian when she is converted to white, I forfeit the ability to play a green negate-last. If at some point later on I play Blessings, guess what? Miriam is back to green and the white enhancements go bye-bye.

I don't think Blessing will negate Golden Shield when it's in the discard pile.

Excellent point. But I'm handicapped by age.

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:01:28 PM

2) Show me how a green Miriam, losing by the numbers is losing any worse by becoming a white Miriam.

Because green Miriam lost. She's gone. No longer in battle. It doesn't matter whether she changes to an evil or good brigade, green Miriam lost. The rescuer has initiative and can play an interrupt on the brigade color of any losing character.

If everyone is hung up on the unique character aspect, let's look at a choose the blocker scenario involving a unique character: the blocker chooses their green David to replace the King David in battle. It's still David just like it's still Miriam. But in the former the rescuer can play a purple or green negate.

The Schaef · « **Reply #32 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:14:16 PM »

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That's not the same Hero though, is it?

I don't know why that is relevant. Initiative has transferred. There is no rule I'm aware of that says you may or may not interrupt based on which of multiple Heroes is in battle. If you played Coliseum Lions on a banded Hero, I'm pretty sure I can interrupt on that Hero and not ONLY on the colors remaining in battle.

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Now do you see the need to demonstrate?

No. There was never an instance where green Miriam was losing, and then converted to white Miriam. Miriam was unblocked, and then the blocker was presented, and then she was losing. One play transferred initiative to her. I thought this was the scenario we had been discussing this whole time, and don't understand your compulsion to lay out a scenario we're already talking about.

The Schaef · « **Reply #33 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:22:49 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:18:30 PM

My point exactly. So how does white Miriam get initiative to play a green enhancement?

Because green Miriam was in battle prior to the previous play. Just like a green Hero was in battle before Coliseum Lions was played. Just like a green Hero was in battle before Lies was played.

The green Hero cannot interrupt Lies because she is being removed from battle. The green Hero can interrupt Lies because the resulting numerical difference transfers initiative. If the EC had initiative after Lies, the green Hero could not play an interrupt just for the sake of stopping her removal. The transfer of initiative is the keystone, and this play transfers initiative.

STAMP · « **Reply #34 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:23:21 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:18:30 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
There was never an instance where green Miriam was losing, and then converted to white Miriam.

My point exactly. So how does white Miriam get initiative to play a green enhancement?

There was never an instance where green Miriam was losing by the numbers.

The Schaef · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:30:32 PM »

Coliseum Lions?

Obedience of Noah?

The Schaef · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:37:28 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:35:05 PM

I fail to see whatever connection it is that you make between those cards and Golden Shield.

You seem to think that Gold Shield precludes interrupts from a color that's no longer around because it completes. Those cards do the same thing. I assume you do not claim they cannot be interrupted with a green card if only a white Hero remained.

The Schaef · « **Reply #37 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:47:10 PM »

How do you play Golden Shield and give initiative to Miriam without transferring initiative.

If you don't have initiative, you can't play Gold Shield. If you don't give away initiative, Miriam doesn't get to interrupt anyway.

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:57:50 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 13, 2008, 04:51:08 PM

Golden Shield is a weapon. Sorry, I assumed that you knew that.

I really don't think there's any need to be sarcastic. Again, we all have been proceeding from the same dataset.

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You don't need initiative to activate a weapon in this manner.

How do you play an Evil Character if it's not your turn to play a card? Alternately, barring "end the battle immediately", under what situation does playing a card into battle not result in an initiative check?

waffledodger · « **Reply #39 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:12:24 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 13, 2008, 04:22:49 PM

The green Hero cannot interrupt Lies because she is being removed from battle. The green Hero can interrupt Lies because the resulting numerical difference transfers initiative. If the EC had initiative after Lies, the green Hero could not play an interrupt just for the sake of stopping her removal. The transfer of initiative is the keystone, and this play transfers initiative.

so to clarify for my understanding:

White Miriam gets to play a green interrupt because the act of converting her to white coincided with giving her initiative, even though the conversion itself didn't have anything to do with initiative transferring.

The Schaef · « **Reply #40 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:19:36 PM »

The conversion is an ability on the weapon. The weapon activates as part of playing the Evil Character. You playing the Evil Character (plus weapon) is what gave Miriam initiative.

In every other instance I have seen in the game where a certain color Hero is no longer in battle, the transfer of initiative allows you to play an interrupt in the color that was there prior to the last play. I see no reason why a color change would be any different, since the deciding factor is not whether or not a certain ability causes a player to be losing, but the transfer of initiative. Hard Bondage does not remove a Hero from battle, but the 2/2 can transfer initiative and allow the player to interrupt, even though the ability is not causing the Hero to be removed from battle. Obedience of Noah can be interrupted by the old EC, not because it is being removed from battle, but because the new EC has initiative by numbers. And so on.

waffledodger · « **Reply #41 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:29:05 PM »

Gotcha. That clears things up for me somewhat.

I think my confusion stems from the fact that while there used to be a green hero in the battle and now there isn't, no one was removed from battle. In the other instances where you can play an interrupt of a brigade that isn't in battle it is because someone was removed from battle (to my knowledge).

The Schaef · « **Reply #42 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:36:51 PM »

Right, but I don't see how the removal from battle is a necessity. All you have to do is transfer initiative. Every other time you get to play an interrupt, all you need is initiative passed to you. And every other instance where Heroes of another color are and then are not in battle, you're allowed to interrupt based on the state prior to the playing of the card, even if you have other-color Heroes still around to fight.

If my conclusion is not the case, it's based on an extremely narrow set of circumstances that seem counter-intuitive. You can interrupt every time initiative goes to you, every time there's a change in the battling brigades, and every time there's a conversion, but not if you have a conversion that changes the brigade and passes initiative to you? I understand this card is different from most others, as we haven't really had cross-color conversion within the same alignment before, but every comparable situation I've seen so far tells me allow the green interrupt.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #43 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:40:45 PM »

Scenario: Naaman w/ Gold Shield blocks King David. It's stalemate by the numbers but I decide to use Gold Sheild when it's ability activates,making King David gold brigade, which makes it my inititive by the numbers.

Is that true?

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:45:14 PM »

Of course it is. I have not ignored anything. I asked you counter-questions already to question the relevance of your question. I have not seen a response from you on that front, so I'm not the one stalling this line of thought.

Since you also responded to me a couple of times continuing that exact discussion, I don't know why you would even claim I've ignored the question; such a claim is very demonstrably false. I'm really baffled by this whole situation, which you've brought forth numerous times, where you're either explaining a scenario to me while we're in the middle of discussing it, or accusing me of ignoring it under the same circumstances. I mean, if we're talking about it, obviously I'm aware of what we're talking about, and I can't be ignoring it if I'm discussing it. What's going on?

waffledodger · « **Reply #45 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:46:13 PM »

I think I might get it. So can I safely say that if a single act passes initiative, I can interrupt based on the state of things before that single act?

Master KChief · « **Reply #46 on:** August 13, 2008, 06:43:34 PM »

Quote from: waffledodger on August 13, 2008, 05:46:13 PM

I think I might get it. So can I safely say that if a single act passes initiative, I can interrupt based on the state of things before that single act?

this is the hole in schaefs logic. how can you possibly play an interrupt based on what the state of the game was before you played that interrupt? you can only interrupt based on what the state of the game is NOW, unless a hero/ec is being targeted for removal that causes you to lose the battle.

scenario: claudia bands to ethiopian treasurer. block 1/1 black king. king initiative, proceeds to play net on claudia. still king initiative. proceeds to play pushed back, which would transfer initiative to the rescuing player because it is now causing him to lose the battle. is it feasible to say that you may then play ehuds dagger because claudia was in the field of battle way back when? of course not.

special abilities are allowed to resolve before an interrupt. again, i bring up my third heaven scenario: if you choose an evil negate card to put back into opponents deck with third heaven, the defending player cannot play that negate card, even to negate third heaven, because third heaven has resolved successfully, and the negate card is no longer there. same scenario. briangabe is absolutely correct. the resolution of gold shield and the check to see if miriam now has initiative based on losing by the numbers does NOT happen simultaneously. gold shield is allowed to resolve first. game checks to see if rescuing player would possibly have initiative to play an interrupt because they are losing the battle by the effect of gold shield. they are not. game then checks for intiative based on the numbers in battle. initiative now transfers to miriam, of which it is now too late to play a green interrupt because she is no longer green. end of story.

The Schaef · « **Reply #47 on:** August 13, 2008, 06:54:55 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 13, 2008, 06:43:34 PM

this is the hole in schaefs logic.

Better make sure before you make that claim.

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You can only interrupt based on what the state of the game is NOW, unless a hero/ec is being targeted for removal that causes you to lose the battle.

Choose the rescuer does not cause you to lose the battle.
Discarding one of a collection of banded characters does not cause you to lose the battle.
My logic is supported by the rules. The hole is in your understanding of them.

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is it feasible to say that you may then play ehuds dagger because claudia was in the field of battle way back when? of course not.

That's not even remotely close to the argument. Among other problems with that scenario, Gold Shield is discarded when played and can only be targeted by a negate-last. Playing additional Enhancements prior to Ehud's Dagger makes it impossible to use it to negate Net as the "last" Enhancement.

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again, i bring up my third heaven scenario: if you choose an evil negate card to put back into opponents deck with third heaven, the defending player cannot play that negate card, even to negate third heaven, because third heaven has resolved successfully, and the negate card is no longer there. same scenario.

It's not the same scenario because the situation is completely different. We are talking about the state of characters in battle, not the state of your hand.

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the resolution of gold shield and the check to see if miriam now has initiative based on losing by the numbers does NOT happen simultaneously.

This does not happen with ANY special ability. What is the point of this statement?

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game checks to see if rescuing player would possibly have initiative to play an interrupt because they are losing the battle by the effect of gold shield. they are not. game then checks for intiative based on the numbers in battle.

This is completely wrong. There is no "initiative to interrupt" that is different from "initiative". You either have initiative or you don't. If you have initiative, you can interrupt.

Otherwise, show me in the rules where two separate initiative checks are made.

Master KChief · « **Reply #48 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:02:28 PM »

you're right, if you have initiative, you may interrupt. however, your miriam is WHITE now. feel free to use your white negate-last enhancements. what makes you think you can rewind the current state of the game and play a card based on what it was before (hence, the claudia/et scenario)?

also, the passing of initiative is a never-ending state. play a card, check for initiative. miriam turned to white? check for initiative based on the resolution of gold shield. causing miriam to lose? no. check for initiative based on numbers. miriam now losing, she may play enhancements as she chooses. however, they must be white or multi-color, because gold shield was already resolved previously.

The Schaef · « **Reply #49 on:** August 13, 2008, 07:03:24 PM »

Everything I typed above. Did you read any of it?

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Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34693 times)

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