Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34680 times)

waffledodger · « **on:** August 13, 2008, 10:55:42 AM »

The scenario:
My opponent makes an RA with Miriam (4/4), I block with Sabbath Breakers (3/2), it's my initiative so I play Gold Shield (0/5, You may discard this card to convert a human Hero in play to a Hero in the brigade of your choice) to make Miriam white. It's still my initiative because Gold Shield is in the discard pile, so I play Dishonest Trader (3/3) to give Miriam initiative.

The question:
Can she play a green negate?

Colin Michael · « **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 2008, 10:57:56 AM »

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:19:37 PM »

Yeah, that's why this card is so nice.

TimMierz · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:19:47 PM »

The scenario:
I make an RA with Miriam (4/4), blocked by King Rezin holding Gold Shield, who discards it to make Miriam white. Can I play a green negate-last?

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:32:13 PM »

STAMP · « **Reply #5 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:36:43 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2008, 01:19:47 PM

The scenario:
I make an RA with Miriam (4/4), blocked by King Rezin holding Gold Shield, who discards it to make Miriam white. Can I play a green negate-last?

Based on all the evidence from the rulebook, REG and past discussions, you can play a negate-last in green or any negate in white.

Master KChief · « **Reply #6 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:48:25 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on August 13, 2008, 01:36:43 PM

Quote from: TimMierz on August 13, 2008, 01:19:47 PM
The scenario:
I make an RA with Miriam (4/4), blocked by King Rezin holding Gold Shield, who discards it to make Miriam white. Can I play a green negate-last?

Based on all the evidence from the rulebook, REG and past discussions, you can play a negate-last in green or any negate in white.

what evidence?

i seem to recall a similiar discussion with third heaven. if you choose an evil negate with third heaven, they cannot use that negate to negate third heaven because it is in the deck...giving substance to the notion that special abilities are allowed to fulfill before being negated. since the hero is now white, a green negate cannot be used.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:51:44 PM »

Here's how to fix the problem: Always use Gold Shield with Naman*!

*Naaman

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:53:39 PM »

I think STAMP's referring to the CTB/exchange scenarios that transfer initiative.

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:26:58 PM »

What we're talking about here is a new precedent since Golden Shield is the first card to convert a Hero but allow it to keep it's Hero status. In the past convert cards removed the character from battle which caused initiative to be passed. Since Golden Shield doesn't cause the character to leave battle and the SA does not (directly) cause them to lose, I would rule that the Hero does not get initiative to play an interrupt/negate in their prior brigade, only in the new brigade that is chosen by Golden Shield.

Gabe

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:29:55 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on August 13, 2008, 01:53:39 PM

I think STAMP's referring to the CTB/exchange scenarios that transfer initiative.

Exactly. I'm treating the conversion of Miriam as though I kicked green Miriam out of battle and put in white Miriam.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:31:40 PM »

clearly no hero is being kicked out of battle though...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:38:08 PM »

man... if you CANT negate it... then i just got a super evil defensive combo.

The Schaef · « **Reply #13 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:39:04 PM »

If I convert Mirian to a gold evil character, can I only negate with a gold evil Enhancement?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:40:51 PM »

No, because she is leaving battle because she has turned into an EC... so you may interrupt it...

The Schaef · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:47:47 PM »

Would she not also be leaving battle because Rezin is beating her numerically?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2008, 02:59:02 PM »

Yes but.. Gold Shield is NOT the reason she is being beaten, so that isnt giving her initiative, being beaten by Rezin is, meaning there is no reason to interrupt the battle, since you dont need to interrupt numbers.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:00:24 PM »

But in choose-blocker scenarios, the character in battle is not the original, but whichever was chosen by e.g. Obedience of Noah.

So I'm still trying to understand why you can play an interrupt in every other instance I can think of where initiative is transferred, including in a brigade no longer in battle, but you can't interrupt this in green.

Lambo - interrupt the battle interrupts the last Enhancement if it was played by an opponent. There is no qualifier of "if the Enhancement is beating your Hero", since last I checked, I could still interrupt Hard Bondage with ITB. "who" or "what" is beating Miriam does not factor into the scenario.

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:21:47 PM »

The difference between your examples and the situation at hand is that in your examples a character is leaving battle (converted to a EC or forced out by choose the blocker). The REG talks about gaining intitative to interrupt/negate when a character is being removed, not when they remain in battle. A Hero who's brigade is changed is still a Hero and is not being removed from battle. Initiative is not transfered by a brigade change.

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:43:00 PM »

Choose Blocker situations do not transfer initiative due to the character leaving battle. It transfers initiative due to the new character having the appropriate numbers to transfer initiative.

The REG does NOT talk about interrupting ONLY when a character is being removed. I want you to show me the passage that says if you play Hard Bondage, I cannot interrupt it because no Hero is removed from battle.

Any time initiative transfers, you may play an interrupt, and I am not aware of any rule that says otherwise. Every argument that I have seen as to why a green interrupt should not be allowed, we have rules and scenarios that allow interrupts in every single one of those situations.

STAMP · « **Reply #20 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:44:50 PM »

Another way to look at it is Gold Shield is allowing the blocker to choose the rescuer. By converting it's brigade, the blocker is choosing a different rescuer.

TimMierz · « **Reply #21 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:45:52 PM »

That seems to be a very strange way to look at it. I don't see it as choosing anyone different at all, just changing one attribute of the same one that was there, is there, and will be there.

Master KChief · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:48:16 PM »

also, look at it this way. since miriam is now white and has initiative, she can play white enhancements. so lets say for the sake of argument that she plays a slew of white enhancements that do not transfer initiative to the evil character in battle. since she still has initiative after all that, do you think its right that she now proceeds to play a green negate-last to negate gold shield?

of course not.

STAMP · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:49:19 PM »

Hey, I'm not saying this is a new type of card, because it is. I'm just saying I agree with Schaef that the current rule scheme supports being able to negate Gold Shield with either brigade.

TimMierz · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:50:31 PM »

John: RA Leah, block King Tiglath-Pileser with 2kH, he plays Confusion. Leah proceeds to convert, discard, and do whatever she feels like to your territory. Since she still has initiative after all that, I *do* think it's right that she plays Bow and Arrow to negate Confusion. This is a parallel situation, and so I think the "of course not" was unmerited.

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Author Topic: Gold Shield (Read 34680 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef