Author Topic: Gifts of the magi question (Read 3995 times)

The Schaefer · « **on:** September 09, 2016, 03:58:32 AM »

With the new update to draw to when multiple cards are drawn does that effect the way gifts of the magi operates whenever multiple cards are drawn?

Gifts of the magi
Each time an opponent draws a card because of a special ability on a character or enhancement, holder may draw a card.

Update to draw
Clarifications
● When multiple cards are drawn they are drawn as a single action not as a separate action for each card drawn.

I guess what I'm asking is is there only one time or instance of cards being drawn when multiple cards are drawn with an ability or is it considered multiple times of cards being drawn so you would still draw multiple cards equal to the multiple cards drawn by opponents?

Watchman · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:26:40 AM »

What the rule is saying is that if an ability activates, such as AutO that allows your opponent to draw 2, or Faith of Samuel where your opponent can draw 3, you don't draw two cards or three cards yourself. You draw only one card for each draw ability your opponent uses (no matter how many cards he draws because of his SA). It's not based on how many cards he draws, only how many draw abilities he uses.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:29:24 AM »

I don't think that's what its saying at all, rather that souls no longer interject themsleves in-between a single draw ability's completion.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2016, 09:21:18 AM »

That clarification is not for cards that match how many cards are drawn (Gifts of the Magi), but rather cards that trigger off draw "abilities" (ex. Music Leader).

The Schaefer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 09, 2016, 10:06:42 AM »

The main point I was making was that since gifts specifies each time a card is drawn and since the new clarification for draw causes the cards to be drawn as a single action in theory there is only 1 time cards are drawn at all so gifts would be limited. I'm just saying that gifts might require a reevaluation as to what it does considering this rule change or maybe an updated errata to avoid confusion. Seemingly gifts has to interject itself between the draw of multiple cards so that multiple cards can be drawn.

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** September 09, 2016, 11:43:20 AM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 10:06:42 AM

The main point I was making was that since gifts specifies each time a card is drawn and since the new clarification for draw causes the cards to be drawn as a single action in theory there is only 1 time cards are drawn at all so gifts would be limited. I'm just saying that gifts might require a reevaluation as to what it does considering this rule change or maybe an updated errata to avoid confusion. Seemingly gifts has to interject itself between the draw of multiple cards so that multiple cards can be drawn.

Gifts says "When an opponent draws a card..." as its trigger. When an opponent draws 3, it's one ability, and now nothing inserts between the draw 3, but that doesn't prevent Gifts from triggering 3 separate times.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #6 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:08:36 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on September 09, 2016, 11:43:20 AM

Gifts says "When an opponent draws a card..." as its trigger. When an opponent draws 3, it's one ability, and now nothing inserts between the draw 3, but that doesn't prevent Gifts from triggering 3 separate times.

For the most part I get this ruling wise except that the cards are drawn as 1 action. Gifts says "Each time an opponent draws a card" not "when an opponent draws a card" and the statements aren't synonymous. There is only 1 time cards are drawn when multiple cards are drawn. So how does gifts trigger multiple instances when there is only 1 time in which "a card" (or more) is drawn?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #7 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:19:47 PM »

I guess for further clarification most people take gifts to read "when opponent draws X..... draw X." Which I am saying gifts imo seems to read "when opponent draws... draw a card" due to the wording of gifts and the update to draw. It could also be interpreted as "when opponent draws exactly one card.... draw a card" but I'm pretty sure taking the card that literally is going overboard.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #8 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:22:45 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:19:47 PM

I guess for further clarification most people take gifts to read "when opponent draws X..... draw X." Which I am saying gifts imo seems to read "when opponent draws... draw a card"

the exact wording on Gifts is however "when opponent draws A CARD". not just draws.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #9 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:25:08 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on September 09, 2016, 01:22:45 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:19:47 PM
I guess for further clarification most people take gifts to read "when opponent draws X..... draw X." Which I am saying gifts imo seems to read "when opponent draws... draw a card"

the exact wording on Gifts is however "when opponent draws A CARD". not just draws.

That isn't the exact wording just as a heads up.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:43:36 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:25:08 PM

Quote from: Ironisaac on September 09, 2016, 01:22:45 PM
Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:19:47 PM
I guess for further clarification most people take gifts to read "when opponent draws X..... draw X." Which I am saying gifts imo seems to read "when opponent draws... draw a card"

the exact wording on Gifts is however "when opponent draws A CARD". not just draws.
That isn't the exact wording just as a heads up.

Thanks, the exact wording is "Each time opponent draws a card..."

The Schaefer · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2016, 01:53:53 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on September 09, 2016, 01:43:36 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:25:08 PM
Quote from: Ironisaac on September 09, 2016, 01:22:45 PM
Quote from: The Schaefer on September 09, 2016, 01:19:47 PM
I guess for further clarification most people take gifts to read "when opponent draws X..... draw X." Which I am saying gifts imo seems to read "when opponent draws... draw a card"

the exact wording on Gifts is however "when opponent draws A CARD". not just draws.
That isn't the exact wording just as a heads up.

Thanks, the exact wording is "Each time opponent draws a card..."

which I am stating the since gifts states "each time" and that the update to draw states "When multiple cards are drawn they are drawn as a single action not as a separate action for each card drawn." That there is 1 time of a draw of multiple cards that occurs not multiple times that a draw of 1 occurs. Which would mean gifts would trigger once. That is why I asked about how the new update to draw applies to gifts because there are logical alternative to what the current function is and if there is a challenge to that it needs to be evaluated. I'm not asking how it currently works. It's more of a question of how multiple cards are drawn in relationship to the wording "each time" on gifts.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** September 09, 2016, 02:20:50 PM »

Cards have been drawn in batches as long as I can remember. Whatever the amount (1, 3, 6) they are all drawn as one game action (even though players physically might draw them individually).

I'm fairly certain that nothing in the quoted portion of the REG from the original post changed recently.

Gifts triggers when cards are drawn, for each card drawn. Then GotM's controller may draw an equal number. No more. No less.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #13 on:** September 09, 2016, 02:25:21 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on September 09, 2016, 02:20:50 PM

Cards have been drawn in batches as long as I can remember. Whatever the amount (1, 3, 6) they are all drawn as one game action (even though players physically might draw them individually).

I'm fairly certain that nothing in the quoted portion of the REG from the original post changed recently.

Gifts triggers when cards are drawn, for each card drawn. Then GotM's controller may draw an equal number. No more. No less.

ok. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if I seemed very obstinate about it as well.

Josh · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2016, 04:04:17 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on September 09, 2016, 02:20:50 PM

Gifts triggers when cards are drawn, for each card drawn. Then GotM's controller may draw an equal number. No more. No less.

Well, they could draw less, since Gifts says "may draw" for each individual trigger. So GotM's controller could draw any number from 0 to X, where X is the number of cards drawn. Right?

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** September 09, 2016, 05:17:25 PM »

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** September 09, 2016, 08:22:55 PM »

Since we are getting a Play as/Errata database, can we get an updated wording or play as to reflect that, because that isn't what the card says. While I am aware that cards are drawn in batches, GoTM does state "a" card. Which implies it triggers for each card.

Josh · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2016, 09:00:13 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on September 09, 2016, 04:04:17 PM

Well, they could draw less, since Gifts says "may draw" for each individual trigger. So GotM's controller could draw any number from 0 to X, where X is the number of cards drawn. Right?

Quote from: Gabe on September 09, 2016, 05:17:25 PM

No

If Gifts triggers individually for each separate card drawn, and has the phrase "may draw..." as the potential action to trigger, I don't understand why you can't choose (individually for each card drawn) whether you want to draw or not draw for that specific card. Can you clarify?

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2016, 03:21:16 PM »

I've address your question in the 12th post on this thread. Cards are not drawn individually. They are drawn in groups of X, where X = the number of cards instructed by a special ability or game rule. That's where your logic breaks down.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2016, 11:16:50 PM »

I think the confusion comes from your post saying this:

Quote from: Gabe on September 09, 2016, 02:20:50 PM

Cards have been drawn in batches as long as I can remember. Whatever the amount (1, 3, 6) they are all drawn as one game action (even though players physically might draw them individually).

followed by this (emphasis mine):

Quote from: Gabe on September 09, 2016, 02:20:50 PM

Gifts triggers when cards are drawn, for each card drawn.

which seem to be contradictory. The second part seems to imply that Gift triggers separately for each card drawn, which would mean that jmhartz's thought would be correct (you could choose each time it triggers whether you want to draw, which would be for each card drawn rather than each ability). That's apparently not what you meant, but explains our confusion.

Red · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2016, 11:19:58 PM »

Source of the confusion:

Gifts' SA.

Each time an opponent draws a card because of a special ability on a character or enhancement, holder may draw a card.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #21 on:** September 15, 2016, 11:58:15 PM »

This is probably already included in the mega errata project but Gifts should probably be given something like,
"Each time an opponent draws because of a special ability on a character or enhancement, holder may draw an equal amount of cards."
Taking the current wording at face value either "draws a card" refers to the batch of cards and thus Gifts can only draw one per batch (Definitely not right) or "draws a card" refers to each individual card and the option of may is given each time one is taken off the deck (Apparently also not right).

The Schaefer · « **Reply #22 on:** September 16, 2016, 02:06:53 AM »

All this confusion was why I suggested gifts be revisited as to what it actually does. Even if it continues to function as it currently has been ruled per Gabe which I fully expect i'd hope to see this card within the list of mega errata going on. Just for clarification since it is seemingly ambiguous. I mean if there is confusion here on the boards I can only imagine it would persist into playgroups.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** September 16, 2016, 02:07:43 AM »

After considering more objectively, whatever the intent was, I have to agree with Red et. al. I don't think any amount of verbal gymnastics will get around the "draw is one action" -> "when draws, draw a card" construction, and if they could, aren't we trying to get rid of difficult-to-justify wonkiness?

Watchman · « **Reply #24 on:** September 16, 2016, 11:33:28 AM »

I learn best by example/practical application, and maybe others do too, so here's an example of how I believe, based upon what I'm understanding from the posts of this thread, the way Gifts is supposed to work:

I rescue attempt with The Angel Under the Oak. I draw 2 based upon AutO's ability. My opponent has Gifts activated. He decides to use Gifts, at which time he also draws 2. I exchange AutO with CoW Samuel, I'm blocked and I have initiative, at which time I play Faith of Samuel and band in another Cloud hero. I then draw 3. Gifts activates again but for whatever reason my opponent doesn't want to use Gifts' ability and chooses not to draw 3.

Is this an accurate example of how Gifts works?

News:

Author Topic: Gifts of the magi question (Read 3995 times)

browarod