Author Topic: Gifts of the Magi (Read 12958 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** November 30, 2012, 12:54:59 AM »

If I have Gifts active and my Feast of Trumpets resolves and i draw for my opponent, can I activate another art?

Feast of Trumpets (Pi)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal/Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. On return, choose a number from 1 to 4. All players must place that number of cards from hand beneath own draw pile and draw an equal number of cards. • Identifiers: OT, Feast • Verse: Leviticus 23:24 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

Gifts of the Magi (F)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time an opponent draws a card because of a special ability on a character or enhancement, holder may draw a card. • Play As: When an opponent draws because of an ability on a character or enhancement, you may draw up to an equal number of cards. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Matthew 2:11 • Availability: F Deck

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2012, 01:02:02 AM »

No, you've chosen to use GotM was your active Artifact for the turn since it happens during your preparation phase.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2012, 01:44:00 AM »

I remember just checking for others.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »

So artifact selection comes *before* set-aside updates. Good to know.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2012, 03:21:40 PM »

So, special abilities that activate at the conclusion of a set-aside counter do not activate in the Upkeep Phase? Does the Upkeep Phase end immediately after counters are placed? Is the triggering of an artifact considered an official "use?"

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2012, 03:48:04 PM »

Set-asides have always returned during the prep phase.

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2012, 04:04:15 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 30, 2012, 01:52:08 PM

So artifact selection comes *before* set-aside updates. Good to know.

False. You choose the order of all actions you can perform during your prep phase. By choosing to use GotM you've chosen to have it active as your Artifact for the turn.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2012, 04:44:39 PM »

What if my opponent chooses to use my artifact during my prep phase? Say Mayhem/RBD because I can't think of a reasonable example. Am I allowed to switch artifacts then?

Chris · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2012, 04:45:58 PM »

I have the same basic question as sauce. What if GotM wasn't a may ability?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2012, 04:51:30 PM »

I just don't really understand why bringing back your set asides means you're choosing to activate Gifts, besides the fact it'd be too powerful. It feels like I'm choosing to take an action that triggers its ability, not choosing to activate it. It just doesn't feel consistent. Take something like Lampstand, for example: I'm always using it by having it active. I'm certainly using it during my prep phase but before my artifact selection. Why am I allowed to ever deactivate it?

Another scenario:
I have a Pentecost set side and Lampstand up. My opponent has Mayhem in their hand. I draw 3, bring back Pentecost and draw 3, and put down some characters. Can I deactivate Lampstand at that point?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:10:41 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 30, 2012, 04:51:30 PM

I just don't really understand why bringing back your set asides means you're choosing to activate Gifts...

You're over complicating this. Bringing back your set-aside doesn't mean you're choosing to activate Gifts. Activating Gifts by using it's optional drawing ability means you're choosing to activate Gifts.

Chris · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:24:01 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 30, 2012, 05:10:41 PM

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 30, 2012, 04:51:30 PM
I just don't really understand why bringing back your set asides means you're choosing to activate Gifts...

You're over complicating this. Bringing back your set-aside doesn't mean you're choosing to activate Gifts. Activating Gifts by using it's optional drawing ability means you're choosing to activate Gifts.

...which brings us to my question. What if Gifts wasn't a May ability?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:37:15 PM »

Quote

Activating Gifts by using it's optional drawing ability means you're choosing to activate Gifts.

This is not true in any other case. If it's a bottom-up rule, it should not be valid. If it's top-down, it's inconsistent, messy, and counter-intuitive, but if true needs to be in the rules.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:46:00 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 30, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote
Activating Gifts by using it's optional drawing ability means you're choosing to activate Gifts.
This is not true in any other case. If it's a bottom-up rule, it should not be valid. If it's top-down, it's inconsistent, messy, and counter-intuitive, but if true needs to be in the rules.

As far as I'm aware it's true in every case - top down rule. Can you provide some common, valid examples of how you think this is inconsistent?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:58:06 PM »

It's inconsistent with the definition we have for the prep phase. It says that we can chose to take actions in any order we want. By that definition we should be able to resolve set-asides, then address artifact activation. However, this is countermanded by an odd rule that says if your artifact gets activated by a set-aside resolving, you've been locked into choosing that as your active artifact.

If you want to have a rule that serves no purpose but disallowing a specific combo, you'd do better to bring back the order of prep phase operations (which would also have a lot of other benefits).

Chris · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2012, 06:03:05 PM »

Without a firm answer on my question, I'm forced to guess that the reason this ruling is the way it is is because Gifts is a "may" ability. Thus, it's a choice whether or not you want to activate it off of Feast.

I'd also be in favor of an order in the prep phase.

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2012, 06:07:49 PM »

Chris, I haven't answered your question be I have no interested in debating hypothetical situations.

Pol, if what you said was true it would be inconsistent. You've made it sound like players have no choice about when they bring back their set-aside characters. The fact that you do choose the order of everything, including when you bring back your set-aside characters is what makes this consistent.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2012, 07:45:11 PM »

So can I not choose to bring back my set-aside characters before activating an artifact?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2012, 10:56:12 AM »

yes.

Also Gabe I do not agree with this ruling. You are triggering Gifts from another card. You are not activating Gifts. If my opponent draws during battle with a card and I draw also, am I activating Gifts? From what I can tell trigger isnt even in the Redemption Terminology yet we use it regularly. Im not sure what the term activate even means as it has always addressed choosing your Artifacts in the game...

STAMP · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2012, 11:33:40 AM »

Hmmm, I should probably stop using 'trigger'. It doesn't necessarily have the best connotation.

I know there are probably a gajillion reasons why it won't be changed, but I've always preferred that cards return from set-aside during the 'increment counters' phase just prior to prep phase. So much more common sense doing it that way.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2012, 12:17:41 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 02, 2012, 10:56:12 AM

Also Gabe I do not agree with this ruling. You are triggering Gifts from another card. You are not activating Gifts. If my opponent draws during battle with a card and I draw also, am I activating Gifts? From what I can tell trigger isnt even in the Redemption Terminology yet we use it regularly. Im not sure what the term activate even means as it has always addressed choosing your Artifacts in the game...

Although I don't like this ruling, I can agree with it and don't see it as being inconsistent. I believe I was the first to ask this question years ago in hopes of taking advantage of the interaction between GotM and Feast of Trumpets. I believe Bryon gave the original ruling.

GotM triggering when your opponent draws a card does not cause you to use it, choosing to activate the optional ability that's triggered is what defines that you "use" it. If you want to activate another Artifact then simply choose not to draw from GotM.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2012, 05:21:49 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 02, 2012, 11:33:40 AM

Hmmm, I should probably stop using 'trigger'. It doesn't necessarily have the best connotation.

Roy Rogers would be ashamed of you.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2012, 07:03:44 PM »

Quote

choosing to activate the optional ability that's triggered is what defines that you "use" it.

Read that sentence and tell me that is simple enough to be ok.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2012, 08:26:07 PM »

So flipping an artifact up is activating it, and using its optional ability is also activating it? Do I understand that correctly?

If so, what if I flip over Holy Grail then immediately use it? Am I allowed to activate the same artifact twice in rapid succession?

It seems silly I can flip it up and then use it, but I can't use it then flip it down.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2012, 10:30:58 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on December 02, 2012, 08:26:07 PM

It seems silly I can flip it up and then use it, but I can't use it then flip it down.

I think you guys are over-analyzing this. You can choose to use any one artifact in your artifact pile each turn. If you bring back guys from Feast of Trumpets, and choose to use GotM to draw some extra cards, then that's your artifact for the turn. If you choose NOT to use GotM, then you still have the ability to choose a different artifact to use for that turn.

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Author Topic: Gifts of the Magi (Read 12958 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Chris

Rawrlolsauce!

Chris

Chris

Rawrlolsauce!