Author Topic: Gifts of the Magi (Read 12998 times)

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #75 on:** December 06, 2012, 12:15:00 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 06, 2012, 01:13:06 AM

Quote from: Chris on December 06, 2012, 01:03:09 AM
We will never get the community to start saying "I'm leaving this artifact up" and pausing for 2 seconds before starting the battle phase. The only time this will ever, ever come up is when someone has an issue with it, and in the meantime, it's a pointless step. I don't believe it's fair to anyone to have this rule that will only be enforced when a specific player wants it to be enforced.

Actually this is like how both MtG and Yugioh do their phase changes. You always have a chance to activate cards before a phase change happens in MtG and Yugioh (it usually goes with priority) and while Redemption doesn't have a rule like that, the rule in redemption is that you can't rush through phases without giving your opponent an opportunity to play stuff. So this artifact thing is already a rule, it just that since it rarely comes up it is still there.

I believe you should have a chance to respond to any action your opponent declares. If thats not a rule in this game, it should be, especially moving from one phase to another.
Here we go per REG:

Redemption® Rulebook > Diagram of a Turn
Overview
The following phases are performed each turn, even if nothing is actively done on a particular phase. A response is allowed between every separate phase.

I also like the freedom to perform the steps of my prep phase in any order, however I am afraid that one day this may not be the case as with the order of abilities.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #76 on:** December 07, 2012, 03:42:20 PM »

Dominants are powerful enough. You shouldn't be able to sit on them until you've rules-lawyered your opponent into a bad position. If it's legitimate for the player with DoN to say, "no, go back to your prep phase, I want to play DoN" after having had plenty of time to do so, it should be legitimate for the other player to say "since you've brought me back into my prep phase, I'm now activating an Artifact."

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #77 on:** December 07, 2012, 04:53:24 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 07, 2012, 03:42:20 PM

If it's legitimate for the player with DoN to say, "no, go back to your prep phase, I want to play DoN" after having had plenty of time to do so, it should be legitimate for the other player to say "since you've brought me back into my prep phase, I'm now activating an Artifact."

I disagree. A player should have the opportunity to DoN the artifact that a player activates for a turn. It is unfair to play DoN on an artifact that you think is active, and have your opponent then turn on a 2nd artifact.

However, if one player says "go back to your prep phase, I didn't have a chance to play DoN", then it is legitimate for the other player to say, "since you destroyed my artifact, then when we go back to battle phase I am attacking with a different hero."

One player responds to the active artifact, and the other player responds to it disappearing. That is fair.

Chris · « **Reply #78 on:** December 07, 2012, 05:12:36 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 07, 2012, 04:53:24 PM

I disagree. A player should have the opportunity to DoN the artifact that a player activates for a turn. It is unfair to play DoN on an artifact that you think is active, and have your opponent then turn on a 2nd artifact.

However, if one player says "go back to your prep phase, I didn't have a chance to play DoN", then it is legitimate for the other player to say, "since you destroyed my artifact, then when we go back to battle phase I am attacking with a different hero."

One player responds to the active artifact, and the other player responds to it disappearing. That is fair.

There should be some disagree of risk in deciding whether to play DoN or not. I agree that rushing through a phase to try and gain an advantage is unfair, but if you're sitting there for five seconds before you start a battle, your opponent should be forced to make a choice. Allowing a player to say "No, go back, I wanted to do something" when they had every opportunity to is not fair.

Master KChief · « **Reply #79 on:** December 07, 2012, 05:51:39 PM »

Saying a player had a choice to do something because you sat there for '5 seconds' is ambiguous at best. Saying a player simply has the chance to respond to a change of phase is a whole lot easier to nail down and actually do in practice.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #80 on:** December 07, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »

I propose that "must have a chance to respond" should only apply in cases of rushing. If you've had ample opportunity to play a Dominant throughout an entire prep phase, you don't get to decide once your opponent's done to suddenly go back.

alternately (and the better option)

There need to be actual rules, rather than just guidelines, for the playing of cards. Especially with regard to priority. Rather than just having a bunch of bottom-up rules about when you can override Mayhem and with what cards, if we make a priority rule we'll have across-the-board consistency, and while we're at it we can make specific time limits for initiative.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #81 on:** December 07, 2012, 05:55:31 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 07, 2012, 03:42:20 PM

Dominants are powerful enough. You shouldn't be able to sit on them until you've rules-lawyered your opponent into a bad position. If it's legitimate for the player with DoN to say, "no, go back to your prep phase, I want to play DoN" after having had plenty of time to do so, it should be legitimate for the other player to say "since you've brought me back into my prep phase, I'm now activating an Artifact."

This is actually how it is played in other card games.

Quote from: Prof. U on December 07, 2012, 03:42:20 PM

However, if one player says "go back to your prep phase, I didn't have a chance to play DoN", then it is legitimate for the other player to say, "since you destroyed my artifact, then when we go back to battle phase I am attacking with a different hero."

Maybe you should ask if its ok to enter Battle Phase before you attack? If yes then this shows declaration that opponent passes priority doesnt want to play anything else.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #82 on:** December 07, 2012, 06:16:07 PM »

We already have a rule that both players have to agree to move to battle resolution (unless a card does it), so why not have a similar situation in the prep phase. After you are done all your actions during the prep phase you have to give your opponent a chance to play cards (dominants and activate abilities on cards already active), then you can move your hero into battle.

Alternatively after you finish, your opponent gets a chance, then you get another chance, until everyone finishes and the hero moves into battle. This would give you a chance to respond to your opponents response and so on. However since only a handful of cards can actually be used on your opponents prep phase (and most of them are dominants) I don't think it will usually go back and forth more than twice, and even that will probably be a rarity, this would interestingly enough also stop your opponent from Mayheming you after you draw but before you can put anything down (assuming I am right in remembering dominants can't be played in Draw and Upkeep phases).

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #83 on:** December 07, 2012, 06:31:33 PM »

Sure, there are only a handful of cards, but there are 7 of them in every single deck.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #84 on:** December 07, 2012, 06:50:06 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 07, 2012, 06:31:33 PM

Sure, there are only a handful of cards, but there are 7 of them in every single deck.

Son of God and New Jerusalem can be played then, but will almost never have an impact. In most cases Christian Martyr, Burial and Angel of the Lord will be played in battle. Grapes of Wrath can only be played during battle. There are only rare cases of when Guardian will be played on your opponents turn (assuming it is even in the deck), Falling Away can be used during your opponents prep phase, but it will usually only be because they drew it (something like Gifts being triggered or a territory class enhancement) or they just deactivated Lampstand and in either case it will usually not cause a major change in what your opponent is doing. Nobody plays Doubt or Glory of the Lord (and if they do again there is likely no difference in prep phase actions), and while Harvest Time might have slightly more play, is usually played on your own turn.

So that basically leaves rare cases that have an impact on your opponent and Mayhem and Destruction of Nehushtan. So while everyone has 7 cards (or possibly more in T2) that can be used at that time in their decks, in the majority of cases only 2 matter most of the time.

There may be a few special cases (and I admit weird situations come up) but my point is this will usually not make too much back and forth during the "end of the prep phase".

Chris · « **Reply #85 on:** December 07, 2012, 06:53:20 PM »

Quote

There may be a few special cases (and I admit weird situations come up) but my point is this will usually not make too much back and forth during the "end of the prep phase".

Which is exactly why establishing any kind of back and forth at the end of the prep phase is, to me, pointless.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #86 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:01:57 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 07, 2012, 06:53:20 PM

Quote
There may be a few special cases (and I admit weird situations come up) but my point is this will usually not make too much back and forth during the "end of the prep phase".

Which is exactly why establishing any kind of back and forth at the end of the prep phase is, to me, pointless.

Actually I was referring to special cases where there is a bunch of back and forth. That was the game has rules to determines who can play their cards when without having to resort to slap jack or the "tie breaker" rules we have now. This would actually decrease confusion and give players a good way to know who "wins" when one person wants to play Son of God for the win and the other wants to play Mayhem for example. This would also allow judges to better figure out who should get a win when both players draw Son of God off their Mayhem draws and have 4 souls each (or 6 in T2), rather than having to deal with Slap Jack or giving the Mayhem player the advantage (I think)

STAMP · « **Reply #87 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:14:55 PM »

Personally, there are two changes I'd like to see:

1. Abilities triggered in Upkeep phase occur in Upkeep phase.

2. The Battle phase starts with artifact activation.

Chris · « **Reply #88 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:20:24 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 07, 2012, 07:14:55 PM

Personally, there are two changes I'd like to see:

1. Abilities triggered in Upkeep phase occur in Upkeep phase.

2. The Battle phase starts with artifact activation.

I agree with both of these wholeheartedly. I believe the first will help reign in speed a little bit, and the latter just makes more sense to me.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #89 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:36:34 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 07, 2012, 07:14:55 PM

Personally, there are two changes I'd like to see:

1. Abilities triggered in Upkeep phase occur in Upkeep phase.

2. The Battle phase starts with artifact activation.

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. I would likely support both changes.p

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Minister Polarius · « **Reply #90 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:37:17 PM »

Agreed. Two simple changes that clear up a lot of hurley-burley.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #91 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:51:52 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 07, 2012, 07:14:55 PM

Personally, there are two changes I'd like to see:

1. Abilities triggered in Upkeep phase occur in Upkeep phase.

2. The Battle phase starts with artifact activation.

This could work, it would power up the CBN artifacts, since you wouldn't be able to DoN them before the battle starts (well you could but your opponent could activate a different one), but it would be a little funny when you activate Burial Shroud in your battle phase only for you to not attack, but again that's not really a problem, just means that you have a battle phase without a battle.

Of course just having a separate artifact activation phase either before or after the prep phase would accomplish the entire second part without changing the battle phase while still keeping the CBN artifacts the way they are (being able to get rid of them before battle starts, unless you had dealing with artifacts the only thing that can happen)

Chris · « **Reply #92 on:** December 07, 2012, 07:53:36 PM »

Wait, I read that as the prep phase starts with artifact activation, which I would prefer, partially for the reasons that Christian Soldier mentioned, partially because doing it at the beginning of the prep phase will continue to reign in speed.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #93 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:12:57 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 07, 2012, 05:55:19 PM

I propose that "must have a chance to respond" should only apply in cases of rushing.

But this is entirely what I'm talking about. Each player should have a chance to respond to their opponent activating (or choosing to leave active) an artifact. Once a player decides which artifact to turn on (or leave on), then their opponent must be given a chance to respond to that decision before rushing on to Battle Phase.

Chris · « **Reply #94 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:25:52 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 07, 2012, 08:12:57 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 07, 2012, 05:55:19 PM
I propose that "must have a chance to respond" should only apply in cases of rushing.
But this is entirely what I'm talking about. Each player should have a chance to respond to their opponent activating (or choosing to leave active) an artifact. Once a player decides which artifact to turn on (or leave on), then their opponent must be given a chance to respond to that decision before rushing on to Battle Phase.

What you're proposing is that, if a person waited 30 seconds between their last action and entering the battle phase, but didn't say "I'm leaving up my current artifact," as soon as he put forth a character, his opponent could then cry foul and insist he wanted to play a dominant. At some point, there has to be a degree of risk, and I see no reason not to nerf dominants a bit.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #95 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:40:38 PM »

This is why there should be some declaration of intent. You just waiting 30 sec. and then taking an action is sneaky.

Chris · « **Reply #96 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:45:32 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 07, 2012, 08:40:38 PM

This is why there should be some declaration of intent. You just waiting 30 sec. and then taking an action is sneaky.

Isn't this a strategic game? Isn't the whole point of the game taking risks and hoping for the best? Why shouldn't my opponent have to make a calculated decision over whether they should play DoN on my CwD or not? As long as I'm not rushing through the phase so they don't get a chance to, I see no reason why they shouldn't have to take a risk.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #97 on:** December 07, 2012, 08:51:36 PM »

A response is allowed between every separate phase.

Platinum_Angel · « **Reply #98 on:** December 07, 2012, 09:16:08 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 07, 2012, 08:51:36 PM

A response is allowed between every separate phase.

I play announcing every action. I say "Battle Phase" my opponent can respond with playing a dominant before the battle phase continues.

Not sure if this would work in "this" game but the game I used to play had what was called "The Stack" ...it made a lot of things simpler and there was no room for questioning when something went off. Believe it or not it made games a lot faster too.
Lets say your opponent plays a Mayhem and you have Son of God in your hand waiting to draw NJ. You could respond by playing the Son of God. The stack works this way:

Mayhem was played
You respond with Son of God
Your opponent surprises you with a Falling Away targeting a lost soul in your land of bondage.
Falling Away activates first then Son Of God than Mayhem. The last card played activates first. (Top to bottom)

Like I said I don't know if this would work...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #99 on:** December 07, 2012, 09:23:25 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 07, 2012, 08:40:38 PM

This is why there should be some declaration of intent. You just waiting 30 sec. and then taking an action is sneaky.

Declaration of intent is really dumb, IMO. My opponent shouldn't know what I'm about to do until I do it. He had plenty of time to DoN the artifact, but chose to wait to see if I'd activate a different one. I didn't. He shouldn't get a chance to go back.

But that's just my thoughts on things. I think it'd be much simpler to have an artifact phase by itself, either before the beginning of the preparation phase or just before the battle phase.

Quote from: RTSmaniac on December 07, 2012, 08:51:36 PM

A response is allowed between every separate phase.

No, it's not. There is no time between phases, they are fluid. You can only play cards in a specific phase.

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on December 07, 2012, 09:16:08 PM

[The Stack...]

Abilities must complete before another ability can activate.

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Author Topic: Gifts of the Magi (Read 12998 times)

Chris

Chris

Chris

Chris

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk