Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on December 05, 2012, 05:55:46 PM

Prof said he'd reconsider his opinion if someone provided a more realistic example than Mayhem/RBD. I don't think it's fair to say trying to do so is "beating a dead horse."

Perhaps Gabe has already thought through all the artifact interaction scenarios and discovered that there aren't any REALISTIC situations where it is necessary to revisit this decision.  You are are welcome to keep suggesting them, but don't get mad at Gabe for feeling like it is a useless endeavor.

First, to your point that no one would do the stupid move, I did it twice on purpose at Nats in T2MP and nearly won because of it instead of having 0 chance to win.  It was very strategic, and in no way moronic

Second, Chris took one of my examples.  One of the best examples, honestly, but let's continue to more:

You have SOG/NJ (which I know because I play U+T of course), and I have one soul out and am nearly decked (hence, of the top 3 cards, almost certain to be a soul).  This seems to happen in a lot of games, so very realistic so far.  Now, you just drew, but the odds of you redrawing SOG and NJ off of Mayhem is very low.  Taking the gamble and knowing that my FBTNBProphetsWhatever can get through your non-existent defense (let's say we're playing T1), I play Mayhem to take the hit.  VERY reasonable, and VERY realistic, showing that it can and will happen (considering I've done this, it makes sense).

Prof U, I never said that players shouldn't be able to activate abilities whenever they want.  I support the ruling as it stands that artifacts cannot be deactivated when used.

However, it is more consistent that you cannot benefit from an ability without that card being active.  No other card type has anything similar where I can gain its benefit without the normal cost per the rules (in this case, forcing my opponent to discard his draw but not having to keep the card active).  It is not consistent with the rules we have now, nor is it consistent with the ruling that mandatory abilities cause artifacts to remain active.

You answered your own question already. The Artifacts controller didn't use the ability (therefore choosing to have the Artifact active), the opponent used it.

The opponent did not use it, at all.  The opponent's card activated the trigger, but it was still the artifact's controller's card.  If Simon the Zealot is active and Given over to Egypt is used, Simon protects deck because it is the opponent's ability.  It is still the opponent that is the originator, regardless of the owner of the card that triggered the ability.

This is also NOT a realistic situation.  If I am in that situation, I would again wait until my opponent decided whether to leave RBD turned on.

You wait until he puts cards down and decreases his deck size, then in my SOG/NJ example you'd lose on the odds.  It is realistic.

I would say "I haven't decided yet." And then proceed with my preparation phase. If you didn't play Mayhem, I'd push a character into battle and begin the battle phase.

This is illegal slap-jack, and should NOT be allowed in a tournament.  You have to give a person a chance to respond to turning on an artifact (ie. playing DoN, or in this case discarding a fortress) before entering battle phase.

People make mistakes, and that doesn't make this scenario any less realistic.

I know people (including me) make mistakes.  But I am also not inclined to change the rules and add restrictions on everyone because of people making mistakes.  It is better to leave the freedom for everyone and simply let people deal with the consequences of their mistake.  If I play Mayhem while you have RBD up from the previous turn and before you announce what you're doing for your artifact this turn, then too bad for me.  I lose my cards, and you still have the freedom to choose what to activate.  I'll learn my lesson and the next time I'll wait until you declare what artifact you're using.

I still see no realistic good reason to limit people's freedom during prep-phase to either force them to do artifacts first or to force them to leave an artifact active because of their opponent's action.

Quote from: Westy on December 05, 2012, 07:18:38 PM

I would say "I haven't decided yet." And then proceed with my preparation phase. If you didn't play Mayhem, I'd push a character into battle and begin the battle phase.

This is illegal slap-jack, and should NOT be allowed in a tournament.  You have to give a person a chance to respond to turning on an artifact (ie. playing DoN, or in this case discarding a fortress) before entering battle phase.

I did not deactivate or activate an artifact, so there's no response to respond to, and I allowed for plenty of time to play dominants if you want to (similar to somebody giving time if your opponent wants to play SoG/NJ before you drop Mayhem, so they can't say "I was going to play SoG/NJ anyway" when they clearly weren't).

Consider this. I do my prep phase all casual like, and you, not wanting to reveal you have a dominant in your hand, decide to wait to see if I deactivate my artifact. I begin pushing a hero into battle, and you, holding me in my prep phase, ask if I am leaving my artifact up.
Here's the problem. I shrug my shoulders at you*. If I take my hand off my hero, it's the battle phase, and the artifact is in effect. If you play a dominant, I can then take my guy back to the territory and activate another artifact, and then resume pushing the game into the battle phase.

*As I should. As it's still preparation phase, I can still decide to do artifacts at a later point, as my example dictates. There's no time between the prep and battle phases.

Main point here is that I don't have to answer your question if I don't want to.

Quote from: Westy on December 05, 2012, 09:37:32 PM

There's no time between the prep and battle phases.

That is true.  However there is time after activating an artifact for an opponent to respond to that action.  And it does make a difference in this case.  For instance, if you have Holy of Holies up, I can play DoN during your prep phase to discard it, but it cannot be negated.  By doing it during your prep phase though, then it will not carry over to battle phase.  If you slap-jack your way into battle phase without giving me a chance to play DoN, then as a judge I would allow your opponent to play DoN before you enter battle.  You could then re-decide which hero you wanted to attack with, but you would not be able to activate a different artifact because you had already picked one and caused your opponent to use up their dominant.

I really don't want to repeat my exact example again, but I guess I'll have to explain it a bit clearer.

I'm NOT activating an artifact--there's an artifact that was already active from the previous turn. I am NOT slap-jacking my way. I am giving you plenty of opportunity, and you can play DoN if you want--I've basically said I'm going to start a battle--but I will get to activate another artifact, because I did NOT activate or deactivate an artifact this turn, and as long as it's the prep phase, I can decide to deactivate or activate an artifact at a later time. An artifact is not picked unless it's been activated that turn or it's the battle phase. During prep phase it can always be switched if it was activated from a previous turn.

Let's suppose it goes this way:
"I'm about to move on to my battle phase."
"Is that the artifact you're leaving active?"
"I'm about to move on to my battle phase. If you play a dominant in the prep phase, I may change how I finish my prep phase."
"Well, I'm not playing a dominant until you decide if that's the artifact you're leaving up."
"Well, I'm not deciding if that's the artifact I'm leaving up until you decide you're playing a dominant."
"Well, I'm not playing a dominant..."

You get the point. It creates a stalemate...neither have to make a decision. The only decision that has to be made is when the battle phase begins, and pushing a hero out (even after this idiotic conversation) will begin that battle phase and is certainly not slapjack, considering I even told you that you can play a dominant if you so choose.

Westy, you're wrong. If they ask "are you done with your artifact activation phase" and you can either be done with it, currently in it, or not done with it. There is no superposition. Even if you didn't change artifacts, you activated the one you left up. EG: Leave Captured Ark up and it gets a counter, even if it didn't shuffle anything.

I agree that Captured Ark should have to get a counter, but I hold that counter is only added when you are done with your preparation phase--when you've decided by game rule not to deactivate it. So long as preparation phase is still going, you haven't technically made that decision (unless you choose to for whatever reason). So yeah, it's a superposition

But if there was a verbal declaration (not simply just pushing a hero into battle) of being done with the preparation phase before the beginning of the battle phase, that would be just as much a superposition. Even if you can go back and do the things you can do multiple times during prep phase, you're adding something that simply isn't in the diagram of a turn at this point.

Also, is this what you're saying: By asking your opponent if they are done activating artifacts, they are are forced to make a decision.

That's totally fine if I do understand you correctly, but IMO, non-actions (not deactivating or activating an artifact) shouldn't have to be declared. Actions (playing a dominant, activating an artifact) should (or rather are by physical placement of cards)

EDIT: Just read your edit. That makes more sense, but I don't like that your battle phase doesn't start until you're done with you're prep phase. I view the transition as immediate.

This is getting into elder territory... My posts are just sayin' it how I think it is (and if it's not - how it should be) - not what I've been told by elders.

Quote from: Westy on December 05, 2012, 11:52:46 PM

But if there was a verbal declaration (not simply just pushing a hero into battle) of being done with the preparation phase before the beginning of the battle phase, that would be just as much a superposition. Even if you can go back and do the things you can do multiple times during prep phase, you're adding something that simply isn't in the diagram of a turn at this point.

What? If you say "Imma rescue in a sec", you're just declaring your intention of finishing prep phase and entering battle phase. You don't enter battle phase until you attack with the hero.

First off, yeah, I'm on the same lines and am basically done saying my side of things because I'm kinda repeating myself. A lot.

Intention of finishing prep phase and finishing prep phase is different. If my opponent plays a dominant after the declaration, I'm still in prep phase and should be able to do whatever I haven't done yet...nothing has actually changed with a declaration.

Again, just clarifying that I'm not an elder and these are just my opinions.... so the skimmers don't assume I've heard it ruled this way...

I think you're missing my point. Artifact activation phase is one segment of prep phase. You cannot complete prep phase until you complete artifact activation phase (you may deactivate an artifact, activate one, keep one active, or choose to have none active.)

If you complete artifact phase and declare you intend to finish your prep phase and your opponent plays a dominant, you can't go back to artifact activation phase. You've already completed that and you only get one a turn.
If you don't complete artifact phase, you can't enter battle anyway.

This is also the way that I see it.

That's essentially allowing your opponent to manipulate how you make your turn by forcing you to pick artifacts whenever they ask. Having a psuedo-section of a phase that can be taken whenever is sloppy and has no precedent.

How can that be used for manipulation? If you haven't decided what you want to activate, you just say you haven't started your artifact activation sub-phase.

A -  I suggested earlier that I'd be fine just saying it when people ask. Dunno what others think.
B - You always have to vocalize every time you're about to leave discard phase.

My importantly, that doesn't answer my question.

We will never get the community to start saying "I'm leaving this artifact up" and pausing for 2 seconds before starting the battle phase. The only time this will ever, ever come up is when someone has an issue with it, and in the meantime, it's a pointless step. I don't believe it's fair to anyone to have this rule that will only be enforced when a specific player wants it to be enforced.

the rule in redemption is that you can't rush through phases without giving your opponent an opportunity to play stuff. So this artifact thing is already a rule, it just that since it rarely comes up it is still there.

I still say it isn't rushing through a phase. I could spend 5 minutes in the prep phase, and you have those 5 minutes to play dominants if they want, I just don't decide whether I want to activate another artifact or not. I shouldn't have to say "I'm leavin' it active", I should just be able to continue at my own pace because it's my turn.

But whatever. If that's the way you're ruling it, fine, but it seems lame to have to declare whether you're activating or not.

We will never get the community to start saying "I'm leaving this artifact up" and pausing for 2 seconds before starting the battle phase.

Actually we have gotten the community to start saying "my initiative?" before playing an enhancement in battle over the last couple years.  It only takes less than a second, and it prevents slap-jack complaints.  I'm not saying that everyone has to say that they're leaving an artifact up every turn.  I'm just saying that you have to let your opponent respond to your artifact choice before going into battle.  Therefore if your opponent asks to be made aware of when you have finished choosing your artifact, then you should honor their request.

Therefore if your opponent asks to be made aware of when you have finished choosing your artifact, then you should honor their request.

There's an important distinction I want to make here. I'm not arguing that I shouldn't respond if my opponent asks me about my artifact "phase," I'm arguing that it shouldn't have to be vocalized every time I'm in the middle of my prep phase. Having a system like that isn't conductive to formal, competitive gameplay, because of the types of scenarios that we've talked about already.