Author Topic: GiC question (Read 3030 times)

Red Wing · « **on:** October 17, 2011, 10:23:20 PM »

I rescue attempt and opponent blocks with a WC EC. He has GiC activated and he uses it. I play Bravery of david to negate GiC. Does GiC remain on the artifact pile, just Negated?

Go Into Captivity (Pi)

Type: Curse • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 0 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: If your warrior class Evil Character is in battle, you may discard this card to capture a Hero. • Play As: When holder chooses, if your warrior class Evil Character is in battle then you may discard this card to capture any Hero. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:41 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)

Bravery of David (RA2)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate an evil card. If the only Hero in battle is warrior class, you may discard an Evil Character. Cannot be negated if David is in play. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:45 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2011, 10:25:35 PM »

I don't think you can target Go Into Captivity with Bravery of David because its not in play anymore.

But if you can it would remain there negated for the phase and your opponent could use it later.

Red Wing · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2011, 10:30:15 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on October 17, 2011, 10:25:35 PM

I don't think you can target Go Into Captivity with Bravery of David because its not in play anymore.

But if you can it would remain there negated for the phase and your opponent could use it later.

Hmm... I was 99.9% sure that you can interrupt/negate GiC. In Gabe's new rulings thread it says that ITB can interrupt Magic Charms if it's in battle, so I would think Negate Evil card could negate GiC. Could be wrong though...

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2011, 10:59:39 PM »

ITB can interrupt Magic Charms used from battle because it's in battle. I think the elders are discussing a rule change allowing you to negate GiC/Writ/Charms outside of battle, but I think the current ruling is that they're discarded before you can negate.

Red Wing · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2011, 09:32:22 AM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on October 17, 2011, 10:59:39 PM

ITB can interrupt Magic Charms used from battle because it's in battle. I think the elders are discussing a rule change allowing you to negate GiC/Writ/Charms outside of battle, but I think the current ruling is that they're discarded before you can negate.

I thought that it had already been ruled that you could negate Writ/GiC/Charms outside of Battle. Elder verification?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:02:08 AM »

Given the newness of the cards, everyone's still a bit shaky on how they're played, which is understandable. As far as I know, you can't negate cards like that out of battle if they're already discarded, but don't rule off of my opinion.

Red Wing · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:58:50 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 18, 2011, 10:02:08 AM

Given the newness of the cards, everyone's still a bit shaky on how they're played, which is understandable. As far as I know, you can't negate cards like that out of battle if they're already discarded, but don't rule off of my opinion.

I've actually ruled that you can negate cards like Writ and GiC. Here's an interesting thread http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/invoking-terror/

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:02:01 AM »

You can only negate cards that are in battle. Unholy Writ is out of battle, so it cannot be negated. Likewise, Go Into Captivity, when played from the artifact pile, cannot be negated.

Korunks · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:14:44 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 18, 2011, 11:02:01 AM

You can only negate cards that are in battle. Unholy Writ is out of battle, so it cannot be negated. Likewise, Go Into Captivity, when played from the artifact pile, cannot be negated.

I had always heard that they were neagtable, just not by any card currently printed in Redemption. The distinction may be academic, but thats what I have heard.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:18:07 AM »

That depends. Can Joe Before Pharaoh stop Writ or GiC? If not, I'd argue that there's no way to print a card that does that.

Joseph Before Pharaoh (FF2)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise put it beneath deck. • Play As: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise place it beneath deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 41:14 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)

Red Wing · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:29:00 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 18, 2011, 11:18:07 AM

That depends. Can Joe Before Pharaoh stop Writ or GiC? If not, I'd argue that there's no way to print a card that does that.

Joseph Before Pharaoh (FF2)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise put it beneath deck. • Play As: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise place it beneath deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 41:14 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)

Foreign Sword too

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Negate an opponent's evil or neutral card. If used by a Canaanite or Philistine, you may return that card to the top of owner's deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Samuel 15:19 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

Could an Elder clarify this situation?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:06:52 PM »

The elders themselves are not clear on this situation. I'm sure they're debating it right now.

Red Wing · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:10:23 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 18, 2011, 12:06:52 PM

The elders themselves are not clear on this situation. I'm sure they're debating it right now.

So is this ruling just left to the judge's/host's discretion?

Master KChief · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:11:40 PM »

The ruling is left to the precedent. It cannot negate if used outside of battle.

Red Wing · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM »

Maybe it's just me, but this ruling seems inconsistent with Gabe's new rulings thread where it says that an ITB card can interrupt Magic Charms being discarded from a Magician in battle.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/

SomeKittens · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2011, 01:02:18 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on October 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM

Maybe it's just me, but this ruling seems inconsistent with Gabe's new rulings thread where it says that an ITB card can interrupt Magic Charms being discarded from a Magician in battle.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/

Absolutely. However, it can't be if MC is used out of battle.

Red Wing · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2011, 01:05:36 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 18, 2011, 01:02:18 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on October 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM
Maybe it's just me, but this ruling seems inconsistent with Gabe's new rulings thread where it says that an ITB card can interrupt Magic Charms being discarded from a Magician in battle.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/
Absolutely. However, it can't be if MC is used out of battle.

I agree ITB couldnt negate Charms outside of Battle. What i'm saying is that things like foreign sword and Joe before Pharaoh should be able to negate MC and GiC.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2011, 02:42:47 PM »

The problem is not that they are outside of battle, but that cards like Foreign Sword and Joseph Before Pharaoh and the like target cards in play, there are special rules for cards played in battle (which is why you can negate Magic Charms in battle and enhancements that remove themselves from battle) but that isn't the case for artifacts outside of battle (at least not yet)

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2011, 06:16:53 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on October 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM

Maybe it's just me, but this ruling seems inconsistent with Gabe's new rulings thread where it says that an ITB card can interrupt Magic Charms being discarded from a Magician in battle.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/

Not really - ITB is currently the only thing that can stop MC being discarded in battle. Foreign Sword and the like can't target an MC being discarded in battle, so it's not inconsistent that they can't target one being discarded outside of battle.

You need an ITB or negate last (for enhancements) to stop a card discarding itself from battle. Negate one/all has to target something in play.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:23:46 PM »

Quote

You need an ITB or negate last (for enhancements) to stop a card discarding itself from battle. Negate one/all has to target something in play.

Incomplete or incorrect.

That is the default but there is the exception for abilities that are removing your character from battle and causing you to be losing the battle. For example:

Deceit of Sapphira would remove itself from battle but any negate one or negate all can stop that from happening (assuming it is also removing the hero) because the exception puts that ability on hold and gives initiative to the opponent to interrupt it. If they don't then it carries out and discards all in battle. So why does that not cover UW etc that remove themselves and the hero? Can't currently get that section in the Reg.

Red Wing · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:36:30 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 20, 2011, 08:23:46 PM

Quote
You need an ITB or negate last (for enhancements) to stop a card discarding itself from battle. Negate one/all has to target something in play.

Incomplete or incorrect.

That is the default but there is the exception for abilities that are removing your character from battle and causing you to be losing the battle. For example:

Deceit of Sapphira would remove itself from battle but any negate one or negate all can stop that from happening (assuming it is also removing the hero) because the exception puts that ability on hold and gives initiative to the opponent to interrupt it. If they don't then it carries out and discards all in battle. So why does that not cover UW etc that remove themselves and the hero? Can't currently get that section in the Reg.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

REG on Initiative:

A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.

REG on Negate:

A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:44:33 PM »

That's the inconsistency - cards that remove all cards in battle can be interrupted/negated with anything, but those that remove themselves and the opposing character need an ITB or negate last. Or maybe that's only supposed to apply to cards that say "discard this card to do X", where X gives the opponent special initiative, so they're discarded before you can play a negate and aren't in play to be targeted by FBN or negate one.

For a source, this thread on Invoking Terror has Professoralstad saying it can only be negated by a negate last or ITB after it's been placed under the deck.

Red Wing · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:55:32 PM »

Okay so just for an official resolution, can I negate/interrupt Writ/GiC/Charms? I would appreciate Elder input.

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2011, 10:40:55 PM »

Aggie is correct. Cards that remove themselves at the same time as the opposing character(s) (and anything else they discard) give special initiative to the opponent just like cards that don't remove themselves. Another example besides Deceit of Sapphira is He Is Risen. It sets itself aside at the same time as the evil characters (per game rule), but the blocker still gets special initiative to interrupt/negate it.

The difference is in cards that discard themselves first or to remove something else. By current ruling, those are already out of battle when the removal of the other thing occurs (since abilities happen in the order printed on the card with the exception of add to battle abilities; and the cost of a cost:benefit ability must be paid before the benefit can be attained) so only a negate last/ITB works and only then for cards discarding themselves from battle.

I'm not an elder, but you can ITB Charms if the Magician it's on is in battle, you can ITB GiC if it's played as an enhancement, and you cannot ITB any of them if played on the artifact pile or on cards outside battle.

News:

Author Topic: GiC question (Read 3030 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

browarod