Author Topic: Gibeonite Trickery  (Read 2493 times)

Offline Minion of Jesus

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Gibeonite Trickery
« on: May 22, 2013, 12:51:53 PM »
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Can you have both (PA and FoOF) versions in a 56 card deck?
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browarod

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 01:32:38 PM »
+1
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe since they share the same name and art they are considered the same for deck building.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 01:56:28 PM »
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No you can't have both in your deck, I asked this question when the cards first came out, and Bryon responded with:

Quote
Same Art + Same Title = same card.  This is true for ALL characters and enhancements.  See King of Tyrus (Gold vs. Orange).  See also Gibeonite Trickery (brown vs. black).

Same Title + Same Brigade = same card.  This is true for enhancements and UNIQUE characters.  See Gabriel (Warriors vs Disciples).  See also Ointment (Warriors? vs. Deck C?)

Same Generic Title + Different art = different card.  This is true for Generic characters only.  See Pharisees, Pharisees, Pharisees.

Different art + Different Brigade = different card.  This is true for characters and enhancements.  See Bow and Arrow (good gold) and Bow and Arrow (gray).  See also David (red) and David (green).  See also Fortify Site (gray) and Fortify Site (black).

The entire topic can be found here: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/gibeonite-trickery-and-gibeonite-trickery/msg434162/#msg434162
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 06:06:16 PM »
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A couple months back I started the following discussion on the elder's board. Everyone that participated in the discussion, including Bryon, agreed that both Gibeonite Trickery are legal in the same deck. Likewise for Ehud's Dagger. I'm sure there are other examples too.

Currently we have duplicate deck building rules in the 10th Anniversary Rule Book (starting on page 56) and an update to those rules on the Priests Insert.

Quote from: Priests Insert
Duplicate Rues for Deck Building
1) Character cards with the same title and the same art are considered duplicates for deck building. Therefore, Jeremiah (white) and Jeremiah (teal) are duplicate characters and only one is allowed in a T1 deck of 50-99 cards.

2) Character cards with the same title and same brigade are considered duplicate characters unless they are generic characters and have different art. Therefore, Michael (Warriors), Michael (Kings) and Michael (Angel Wars) are considered the same hero and only one is allowed in a Type 1 deck of 50-99 cards. However, Sadducees (G deck) and Sadducees (Apostles, 3 variants) all have different art and are generic characters, so one of each is allowed in a T1 deck of 50-99 cards.
Based on this I believe it's legal to have both Gibeonite Trickery (Pa - brown) and Gibeonite Trickery (Ra2 - black) in the same deck. Since they are enhancements, not characters, the "same name and same art" rule doesn't apply. I don't think there's anything broken about leaving it this way. Thoughts?
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Chris

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 12:20:47 PM »
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So then what are the rules for duplicates for enhancements?

TheHobbit13

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 01:09:19 PM »
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It's probably best if the same duplicate rules that apply to characters apply to enhancements and other cards. Otherwise your going to run into more problems down the road if you try to reprint things like A New Beginning in different brigades.  Not to mention being able to have 2x Authority of Christ (one Promo, one limited ) is pretty ridiculous in type 1.  And what about variants? Can I have two Haman's Plots (one plot has Haman's head on the right and another version has it on the Left)?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 01:39:22 PM »
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The duplicate deck building rules already cover what is considered a duplicate for enhancements. From the questions I'm seeing (I'm looking at you Hobbit) you haven't looked at the rules. ;)

The only difference here is that a rule that only applies to duplicate characters was assumed by some to apply to enhancements as well.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 03:24:23 PM »
+1
From what I have read you can have aocp and aoc in your deck, correct? If so then I don't see why differences in special ability, border color, or brigade matter whereas differences in artwork do not.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 06:09:41 PM »
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The duplicate deck building rules already cover what is considered a duplicate for enhancements. From the questions I'm seeing (I'm looking at you Hobbit) you haven't looked at the rules. ;)

There actually are no rules as of right now, just posts floating around the boards.  What we had in the past (ChristianSoldier's post) had been the established ruling, and now we have your post with a ruling from the other side of the boards that is new.  However, nowhere in the REG or any other files are the current deck-building rules to be found.  I understand that there is a new rulebook printed, so do we know when the text of that will be made available for us?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 07:24:40 PM »
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Quote from: Priests Insert
Duplicate Rues for Deck Building
1) Character cards with the same title and the same art are considered duplicates for deck building. Therefore, Jeremiah (white) and Jeremiah (teal) are duplicate characters and only one is allowed in a T1 deck of 50-99 cards.

2) Character cards with the same title and same brigade are considered duplicate characters unless they are generic characters and have different art. Therefore, Michael (Warriors), Michael (Kings) and Michael (Angel Wars) are considered the same hero and only one is allowed in a Type 1 deck of 50-99 cards. However, Sadducees (G deck) and Sadducees (Apostles, 3 variants) all have different art and are generic characters, so one of each is allowed in a T1 deck of 50-99 cards.
Based on this I believe it's legal to have both Gibeonite Trickery (Pa - brown) and Gibeonite Trickery (Ra2 - black) in the same deck. Since they are enhancements, not characters, the "same name and same art" rule doesn't apply. I don't think there's anything broken about leaving it this way. Thoughts?

Reviving this topic since we have a new rulebook, and the wording there is different from the Priests insert referenced above.  As it is a rulebook (and more recent), it should take precedence over the old rule in any case.  It does not refer to characters, but cards, and the relevant section (for Trickery, at least) is the first one (underlined).  Can we get some clarification please?

Quote from: 4th Edition Rulebook
Defining Duplicate Cards:
Same Title + Same Art = Same Card.
Cards with the same title and same art are considered duplicates. For example, Saph (black brigade) and Saph (gray brigade) are  duplicates. Since they have special abilities, you are allowed only 1 Saph in a deck of fewer than 100 cards.
•Same Title + Same Brigade = Same Card (except generic characters with different art).
Cards with the same title and same brigade are considered duplicates. For example, John (purple brigade, deck J) and John (purple
brigade, deck H), and John (purple brigade, promo) are duplicates. Since they have special  abilities, you are allowed only 1 John in a deck of fewer than 100 cards. The only exception to this rule is generic characters with different art.  For example, you can have 4 different versions of Sadducees in your deck, since they are  generic characters with different art.
•Different Art + Different Brigade = Different Card.
Cards that have the same title are not considered duplicates for deck building if their art and brigade are different. For example, you can have one Peter (purple brigade) and one Peter (red brigade) in your deck. However, since Peter is a unique character, you can only have one in play at a time.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Gibeonite Trickery
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 10:26:47 AM »
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Additionally, can we get the Extended / complete Rulebook that the 4th edition keeps mentioning?

 


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