Author Topic: Gates of J / Kings of Judah  (Read 5349 times)

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2011, 06:07:30 PM »
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If an evil King/Queen is blocking, it's no longer in your territory, so it loses protection. So how could "one" refer to an evil King/Queen in your territory, since it's in battle? O_o

GoJ protects Evil Kings and Queens in your territory. So at the point where you are attacked, the protection extends to all evil Kings and Queens of Judah in your territory, but it doesn't protect any in set-aside, your hand, your deck, or anywhere else. When you block with one of them, you are blocking with a character referred to by the 'one' in the ability. It's really not that hard to understand how it could work that way. Could it have been clearer? Possibly. It probably should say: "Protect evil Kings and Queens of Judah from opponents' cards. If your evil King or Queen of Judah blocks from your territory, its special ability cannot be negated and you may draw a card." However, I would assume that at the time it was printed that it was thought that the current wording could say the same thing more succinctly.

I would recommend a Play As to that effect, but that's all that we really need. For now, I am hoping that the agreement of several Elders will suffice to say that is how it should be ruled.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 06:17:51 PM »
+1
However, I would assume that at the time it was printed that it was thought that the current wording could say the same thing more succinctly.
Split Alter. Just sayin'

Offline Bryon

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 06:26:20 PM »
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After the Priests, Rob started giving guidelines for how long a special ability can be.   We are told not to go beyond a certain length.  If we can't fit an extra ability due to space, then we don't add it.  If it is fairly clear when written briefly, then we go that way.  If it needs to be longer for more clarity, then a "play as" is where that will be given.

The Schaef

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2011, 07:33:24 PM »
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Split Alter. Just sayin'

This is not Split Altar.  There is nothing wrong with the way this card is worded.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 10:51:15 PM »
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Quote
There is nothing wrong with the way this card is worded.
Yes, there is actually. Has anyone actually rebutted my explanation of why the card doesn't do what you're saying as written? No. All anyone's said so far in response to my exhaustive breakdown of the wording is "nuh uh."

Schaef, you've ignored the problem that if "in your territory" doesn't apply to the blocking characters (which it mustn't, otherwise the second sentence would do nothing), then the second sentence does not refer only to your EC's.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 11:04:16 PM »
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Schaef, you've ignored the problem that if "in your territory" doesn't apply to the blocking characters (which it mustn't, otherwise the second sentence would do nothing), then the second sentence does not refer only to your EC's.
GoJ protects Evil Kings and Queens in your territory. So at the point where you are attacked, the protection extends to all evil Kings and Queens of Judah in your territory, but it doesn't protect any in set-aside, your hand, your deck, or anywhere else. When you block with one of them, you are blocking with a character referred to by the 'one' in the ability. It's really not that hard to understand how it could work that way. Could it have been clearer? Possibly. It probably should say: "Protect evil Kings and Queens of Judah from opponents' cards. If your evil King or Queen of Judah blocks from your territory, its special ability cannot be negated and you may draw a card." However, I would assume that at the time it was printed that it was thought that the current wording could say the same thing more succinctly.

I would recommend a Play As to that effect, but that's all that we really need. For now, I am hoping that the agreement of several Elders will suffice to say that is how it should be ruled.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 11:11:13 PM »
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Right, so the argument is "if the card had been printed today it probably would have said..." but if Split Altar had been printed today it would say...as well. At the end of the post he says a play-as is needed, which I could agree with, although what it really needs is errata.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

The Schaef

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 11:24:11 PM »
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Has anyone actually rebutted my explanation of why the card doesn't do what you're saying as written? No.
Schaef, you've ignored the problem that if "in your territory" doesn't apply to the blocking characters

Both of these statements are patently incorrect, because I addressed exactly that problem in my initial response.

To expand on my previous explanation, the rules clearly state: "If your opponent chooses to block, he should place an Evil Character into the Field of Battle to fight your Hero. This Evil Character can come from his territory or his hand."  There is no question that an Evil Character in your territory can block.  You seem to have that confused with whether an Evil Character in your territory can be "is blocking".

This is a simple ability, simply read and simply understood.  "If one blocks" must refer only to a card from among the target(s) listed in the first sentence, which are specifically, evil Kings and Queens of Judah in your territory.  So if you take an evil King of Judah in your territory, and you block with it, you do the thing on the card.  Don't make this card more complicated than it needs to be for no reason.  In fact, Prof. Alstad's recommended play-as actually changes the function of the first sentence so it is actually worse wording for the card in addition to being needlessly complex.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 11:26:23 PM by The Schaef »

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 11:30:13 PM »
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So "blocks" means "enters battle," yes?
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

The Schaef

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 11:31:29 PM »
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Stop with the obvious leading questions and either respond to what's been said, or don't.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 11:32:16 PM »
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Does "blocks" mean "enters battle?" Simple yes-or-no question that your argument depends on.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

The Schaef

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 11:40:09 PM »
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You are missing one of three things in asking that question, either:
a). the part of the rulebook that states this,
b). the post immediately before you asked the question which quotes that passage directly, or
c). the fact that I framed my argument around that with no issues whatsoever

Repeating things I said not ten minutes before, is no more a productive use of everyone's time than making such a request without, apparently, reading the points you presume to debate.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 11:41:23 PM »
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There we have it, "blocks" means "enters battle." That's all I needed, thanks!
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2011, 11:43:18 PM »
+1
The only reason Schaef has time for this is because Ohio State is demolishing Arkansas.
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The Schaef

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2011, 11:47:43 PM »
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Given the complete lack of rebuttal to my previous points, then, I will assume they stand as presented.  Therefore, Gates is correct as written.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2011, 11:54:41 PM »
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Oops! I stand corrected. The last time I checked, the Buckeyes were winning 31-13. Now suddenly it's 31-26.  :o
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2011, 12:01:55 AM »
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There we have it, "blocks" means "enters battle." That's all I needed, thanks!

To be clear, "blocks" means an EC enters battle but an EC entering battle does not necessarily equate a to "blocking." (Side battles for example)
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Gates of J / Kings of Judah
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2011, 12:19:15 AM »
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It's OK, Schaef. You can breathe now.....  ;)
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