Author Topic: Gates of J / Kings of Judah (Read 5350 times)

Cpt.Jaeger · « **on:** January 03, 2011, 05:21:48 PM »

If I block with a king of judah, and my opponent has Gates of J in play, can my king's ability be negated and does my opponent draw a card?

adotson85 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:24:36 PM »

Your opponent's Gates does not work for your characters. The reason why is because of the word "your" in the special ability.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:26:17 PM »

I thought the first and second half of the special ability were separate...

adotson85 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:50:11 PM »

Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on January 03, 2011, 05:26:17 PM

I thought the first and second half of the special ability were separate...

It seems to me that the second sentence is referring to your kings or queens of judah, whereas in this case your would be the person who played gates.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:14:43 PM »

There is no "your" in the second sentence. The question here is whether "one" refers to "kings and queens of Judah" or "kings and queens of Judah in your territory." I'd argue it's the former since if a card blocks it is in battle, not territory, so I'd rule an opponent's GoJ will make you CBN and let you draw, and further more, you'd get to D1 for every copy of GoJ.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:17:02 PM »

"One" refers to the K & Q controlled by the owner of GoJ.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:30:40 PM »

No, it doesn't. That's not how the card is written and no errata/play-as has been issued.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:22:22 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 03, 2011, 08:14:43 PM

There is no "your" in the second sentence. The question here is whether "one" refers to "kings and queens of Judah" or "kings and queens of Judah in your territory." I'd argue it's the former since if a card blocks it is in battle, not territory, so I'd rule an opponent's GoJ will make you CBN and let you draw, and further more, you'd get to D1 for every copy of GoJ.

well, I would assume since "your" always refers to the owner, that "you" would mean that only the owner of GoJ would draw one, but "one" has no ownership clause in the SA, so i would assume that my opponent's GoJ would make my king CBN

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »

The "you" is not referring to any kind of ownership, it's just telling who draws if the conditions are met.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:45:56 PM »

who is "you" referring to if not the owner of the card?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:49:57 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 03, 2011, 09:44:42 PM

The "you" is not referring to any kind of ownership, it's just telling who draws if the conditions are met.

I would respectfully disagree. The "your" in the first sentence would logically be the "you" in the second sentence. This requires ownership and control.

The M · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:50:58 PM »

Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on January 03, 2011, 09:45:56 PM

who is "you" referring to if not the owner of the card?

there are other abilities that imply that you have ownership of that card.
this one could be used for just who draws, not who owns it.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:47:41 PM »

No, it doesn't. English, people. Let's look at this:

Protect (verb, protect whom?) evil (adjective modifying Kings and Queens) kings and queens (subject of protect) of Judah (genitive modifying kings and queens) in your territory (describes kings and queens) from (preposition) opponents' (modifies cards) cards (object of from).

That's the first sentence. Now for the second:

If (condition) one (refers to either kings and queens, or kings and queens with all modifiers, or kings and queens of Judah, or kings and queens in your territory; this is what's being disputed) blocks (verb, subject of the condition) its special ability cannot be negated (not really relevant) and you (subject, does not refer back to anything) may draw (verb) a card (subject of draw).

The only thing in the second sentence that refers back to the first sentence is the word "one." It is either referring back to "kings and queens" (in which case someone blocking with a king or queen will D1 for all GoJ out, referring to "kings and queens of Judah" (most likely, means that someone blocking with a king or queen of Judah will d1 for every GoJ out), or referring to "kings and queens (+/-of Judah) in your territory" (in which case GoJ's second sentence does nothing).

So as you can see, as written, it will protect only your own kings and queens of Judah in territory, and grant CBN and D1 to either nobody, all kings and queens, or all kings and queens of Judah (not just yours).

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:50:39 PM »

Quote from: The M on January 03, 2011, 09:50:58 PM

Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on January 03, 2011, 09:45:56 PM
who is "you" referring to if not the owner of the card?
there are other abilities that imply that you have ownership of that card.
this one could be used for just who draws, not who owns it.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 03, 2011, 09:49:57 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 03, 2011, 09:44:42 PM
The "you" is not referring to any kind of ownership, it's just telling who draws if the conditions are met.

I would respectfully disagree. The "your" in the first sentence would logically be the "you" in the second sentence. This requires ownership and control.

I think you and Pol are both right, but thinking about it differently. your and you are referring to the same person. the "you" it indicating who draws the card, and the only person that gets to draw a card, happens to be the owner....

I don't really see Gabe's logic when he said, " 'One' refers to the K & Q controlled by the owner of GoJ."
The word "one" is synonymous with "any" and "single" by dictionary standard.
Also, "your" is only specifying which territory, and indirectly which characters because it specified which territory. however, an evil K/Q blocking is no longer in "your territory", thus it is only determined by the word "one"..... which is "any" and pointed out in my previous point....

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:54:32 PM »

We're not both right. He's just plain wrong about the "your" and "you" being linked in the way he is proposing. They're both the same person, but "you" is not an adjective and is not grammatically linked to the earlier "your" in any way.

Again, the only way for this card to not do one of these three things:

1. Give all kings and queens CBN and D1 per GoJ
2. Give no kings or queens CBN or D1 since they're not in territory
3. Give all kings and queens of Judah CBN and D1 per GoJ (the most likely)

Is with errata. As written, the second sentence must do one of these three things.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:58:29 PM »

I simply meant that "you" and "your" are the same person, just not linked

or option #4
4. Give ALL kings and queens of Judah CBN and D1 to OWNER of GoJ (my opinion)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2011, 11:00:16 PM »

Yes, that clarification needs to be made. It's D1 per GoJ, but the owners of the GoJ are the ones drawing.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2011, 08:42:22 AM »

I'm not sure why this got moved to this section but the answer seems pretty cut and dried.

"If one blocks" refers to one of the cards meeting the previous conditions. What were the previous conditions? "Evil kings and queens of Judah in your territory".

The target in the second sentence has to be one card from the list of targets in the first sentence. To say the second sentence does nothing because a card is no longer in your territory if it blocks, is like saying cards that refer to blocking from hand don't work either, because the card is no longer in your hand. It's nonsensical, and a simple reading of this card should be sufficient.

Bryon · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2011, 10:20:22 AM »

Agreed.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:46:57 PM »

Also agreed.

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:51:10 PM »

So if you block with an Evil King of Judah from your hand, does it get the CBN and Draw 1?

Bryon · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:57:59 PM »

The Guardian · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:27:31 PM »

Ah, okay...then that seems consistent to me.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2011, 05:15:49 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on January 04, 2011, 08:42:22 AM

I'm not sure why this got moved to this section but the answer seems pretty cut and dried.

"If one blocks" refers to one of the cards meeting the previous conditions. What were the previous conditions? "Evil kings and queens of Judah in your territory".

The target in the second sentence has to be one card from the list of targets in the first sentence. To say the second sentence does nothing because a card is no longer in your territory if it blocks, is like saying cards that refer to blocking from hand don't work either, because the card is no longer in your hand. It's nonsensical, and a simple reading of this card should be sufficient.

Quote from: The Guardian on January 04, 2011, 01:51:10 PM

So if you block with an Evil King of Judah from your hand, does it get the CBN and Draw 1?

Quote from: Bryon on January 04, 2011, 01:57:59 PM

No

oh, hmm, ok

thanks

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2011, 05:40:08 PM »

If an evil King/Queen is blocking, it's no longer in your territory, so it loses protection. So how could "one" refer to an evil King/Queen in your territory, since it's in battle? O_o

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Author Topic: Gates of J / Kings of Judah (Read 5350 times)

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk