Author Topic: Gates of hell (Read 6301 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2011, 11:49:17 PM »

If that's true, then I have a combo to remember. I just remember it didn't work because of not being able to enter twice. Although, I'm not sure I was planning on shuffling/placing it.

CJSports · « **Reply #26 on:** January 09, 2011, 08:19:13 AM »

Thank you everybody, helped alot.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2011, 11:46:46 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 01:36:15 PM

Whether or not you have more than one copy of it doesn't matter. It has to do with how the "once per battle" rule works in relation to generics.

Do you have any backing for this statement? I found a thread where two elders disagree with that, but it is pretty old (and before the elders were elders...).

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2011, 11:56:41 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 01:36:15 PM

Whether or not you have more than one copy of it doesn't matter. It has to do with how the "once per battle" rule works in relation to generics.^{[citation needed]}

Gabe · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2011, 12:40:40 PM »

The only thing I've found in the official rules regarding characters entering battle more than once is this:

Quote from: REG > Instant Special Abilities > Withdraw from Battle > Special Conditions

If a character is forced to withdraw or withdraws from a battle voluntarily, it may not not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn.

If someone knows of another REG quote on this topic please share it. In that quote I don't find anything about generic vs. unique characters. As it's currently written this rule appears to apply broadly to all characters.

It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #30 on:** January 09, 2011, 05:24:01 PM »

Last time this question came up, I explained how it worked and an elder agreed with me. There is currently nothing about it one way or the other in any rules document.

adotson85 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 09, 2011, 05:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2011, 12:40:40 PM

It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.

This is how I think it should work also, especially with the addition of Legion.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2011, 08:59:23 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on January 09, 2011, 05:36:18 PM

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2011, 12:40:40 PM

It's my opinion that generic characters should be able to re-enter battle regardless of the number of copies in your deck. I've ruled that way in T2 in the past but I don't recall this ever coming up in T1.

This is how I think it should work also, especially with the addition of Legion.

I agree with Gabe/Pol as well, though I have had tournament judges rule differently.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2011, 10:32:01 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 09, 2011, 08:59:23 PM

I agree with Gabe/Pol as well, though I have had tournament judges rule differently.

Which is why we need an official Elder ruling.

Oh wait..... Gabe and now the Professor...... WE HAVE A RULING!!

TheJaylor · « **Reply #34 on:** January 09, 2011, 10:58:36 PM »

Yeah I get the question now that I have refreshed myself of Gates' ability. I believe that generic can enter when ever needed especially since you can have more than one generic character in battle at the same time in T2 and rarely T1 but yes T1 too. Tribal Elder x5 to Jacob to Captain, Tribal Elder is in there and same with the Legions you can have more than one in battle, how come they wouldn't be able to re-enter if needed?

Korunks · « **Reply #35 on:** January 10, 2011, 09:59:56 AM »

Ok here we go again.

<rant>

This is yet another case where the REG is incorrect and I would have ruled this wrong. Can we please get this cited in what ever is the official REG corrections thread? (there are two and I have no clue which is the correct one). This whole correction thread approach is useless unless some one actually maintains it. Can we have it clearly labelled? And rename the other one?

</rant>

I am however glad that is resolved.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #36 on:** January 10, 2011, 09:50:25 PM »

Actually the REG is not incorrect about this. It is totally silent on the issue.

Now, to KKFA, it's not quite that easy to get generics back into battle. If a generic character has left battle during a battle phase and is still in territory or set-aside, the battle still remembers that character and it will not be able to re-enter.

Korunks · « **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2011, 10:21:25 AM »

Quote

Actually the REG is not incorrect about this. It is totally silent on the issue.

I disagree.

Quote from: REG > Instant Special Abilities > Withdraw from Battle > Special Conditions

If a character is forced to withdraw or withdraws from a battle voluntarily, it may not not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn.

I would have used this as a guideline and made the wrong ruling.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #38 on:** January 11, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »

Then the fault would have been yours for forgetting about the "cards reset in deck/discard pile" rule.

Korunks · « **Reply #39 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:07:47 AM »

But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** January 11, 2011, 12:49:29 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2011, 10:49:33 AM

Then the fault would have been yours for forgetting about the "cards reset in deck/discard pile" rule.

If absolutely everything resets when a card hits the deck, then I demand to be able to use Jephthah multiple times.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #41 on:** January 11, 2011, 02:54:58 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on January 11, 2011, 11:07:47 AM

But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?

No, and the opposite is never stated either. I've laid this out before, even on this thread. When the REG is silent you have to use logic. I explained how I reached the proper conclusion just through Logic and 3 elders confirmed my findings. It wasn't all that complicated either.

Lambo, nice try

Korunks · « **Reply #42 on:** January 11, 2011, 03:36:23 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2011, 02:54:58 PM

Quote from: Korunks on January 11, 2011, 11:07:47 AM
But the battle does not reset whether the status of the card did. Is it ruled any where that the battle "forgets" that the character was in the battle, even if the card resets and no longer has the "was in this battle" status?
No, and the opposite is never stated either. I've laid this out before, even on this thread. When the REG is silent you have to use logic. I explained how I reached the proper conclusion just through Logic and 3 elders confirmed my findings. It wasn't all that complicated either.

I am not arguing that your scenario is incorrect or complicated. Just that without this ruling the information in the REG would not have led to your conclusion.

You said:

Quote

The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS. There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck. Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.

part one:

Quote

The reason the rule works that way is that in cases of generic characters, there is no memory of the character by title in battle, otherwise WS wouldn't be able to band to WS.

Where in the REG is the rules for what the battle "remembers"? I cannot locate it.

part two:

Quote

There is memory of the individual card, but that memory gets erased when the card resets in deck.

So you are stating that the battle does remember the card but that it gets reset when the card resets. Where is that in the REG? I can't locate it. If that is not what you are saying please correct me.

part: three

Quote

Therefore, if a generic is brought back out again it has no longer already entered battle.

Yes this follows from your premises, but I am suggesting without digging throught the forums your logical and "simple" deduction would have been impossible because the REG does not, in it's current form, support your premises. So how could a host (aside from spending copious amounts of time on the forums) make the same deduction? If the REG actually does confirm those premises please correct me.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #43 on:** January 11, 2011, 03:54:45 PM »

It's logic. There must be some mechanism by which a generic character may be banded into battle by another copy of itself, yet can't re-enter battle if forced to withdraw from battle. The only logical solution to that is the battle memory solution, which has precedence in that "per game" cards are "remembered" by the game. As a logical extrapolation, we can then assume that since cards like Unknown Nation can add generics of a kind that is already in battle to battle, the status of memory must be tied to the individual card and resets like all other attributes when in deck or Discard.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #44 on:** January 11, 2011, 04:28:17 PM »

Clearly what is "logical" is subjective. This is a situation that the REG needs to no longer be silent about.

Korunks · « **Reply #45 on:** January 11, 2011, 05:08:43 PM »

Quote

As a logical extrapolation, we can then assume that since cards like Unknown Nation can add generics of a kind that is already in battle to battle, the status of memory must be tied to the individual card and resets like all other attributes when in deck or Discard.

Add the basis for that extrapolation, the Unknown Nation ruling, is it defined in the REG? Or does it also require knowledge of a ruling made on the forums? Again I can find no mention of that ruling in the REG. Whence comes this revelation?

When I am a host and have been asked a question I don't have the luxury of hours to dig through several old posts and then spend time pondering until I reach that conclusion. I need an answer fairly quickly.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:26:20 PM »

cards also reset in hand, right? so would that work the same?

as far as the ruling goes, I can't think of any other logical, consistent way to rule it.

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Author Topic: Gates of hell (Read 6301 times)

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo