Author Topic: Joseph's protect.  (Read 2357 times)

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Joseph's protect.
« on: August 27, 2017, 07:32:27 PM »
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The new Joseph protects other sons of Jacob from discard. Does that include my opponent's Joseph? If we are both playing genesis and both have the Joseph out are they protecting eachother?

Offline Master Q

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 07:53:02 PM »
+3
Depends on your point of view. Does it mean other sons of Jacob {besides this one} or {besides Joseph}? I would say it's supposed to be the latter. In which case, they would not be protected. But it's unclear... :-\

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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 08:18:30 PM »
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That is why I'm asking. Based on how I read it it would. It does not specify not Joseph just sons of Jacob other than this card which means other Joseph cards are other sons of Jacob.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 08:59:43 PM »
+1
I would rule that it would not protect your opponent's Joseph because "other sons" is referring to all of Israel's sons except Joseph. And one just needs to go to the story to understand the purpose of that ability, which is he provided protection to Israel's sons from being killed by the famine and from himself since he had the power to crush his brothers for what they did to him.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 08:17:52 AM by Watchman492 »
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 09:20:08 PM »
+3
I mean to be fair he didn't starve either.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 12:27:47 AM »
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In the absence of a general rule, I'd probably rule that he would protect an opponent's Joseph, because I read "Other" as "other than this specific card" not "this unique identity" and the sons of Jacob would be referring to all twelve.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 08:53:03 AM »
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In the absence of a general rule, I'd probably rule that he would protect an opponent's Joseph, because I read "Other" as "other than this specific card" not "this unique identity" and the sons of Jacob would be referring to all twelve.

I understand what you're saying but "this specific card" is still considered a unique character because they're both still Joseph.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 01:20:42 PM »
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In the absence of a general rule, I'd probably rule that he would protect an opponent's Joseph, because I read "Other" as "other than this specific card" not "this unique identity" and the sons of Jacob would be referring to all twelve.

I understand what you're saying but "this specific card" is still considered a unique character because they're both still Joseph.

I would read this ability the same whether Joseph was a unique character or not, or more logically whether an ability like this was on a unique or generic character, and I think if say a generic warrior class hero had an ability that said "Protect other warrior class heroes from discard" it would protect another copy of itself and I don't think being unique is a good reason to rule it differently without a specific uniqueness based rule. In my opinion if they wanted the ability to exclude Joseph they should have written it as something like "Protect Sons of Jacob except Joseph..." although this could be a situation where they were trying to cut back on the character count (as in letters and such) so it could go either way in that sense.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 01:44:24 PM »
+1
I reviewed playtest documents and this question did not come up (which usually means the playtesters understood the card the same way). However, we are reviewing it just to be sure.

Personally, I believe the correct interpretation is that "other sons of Jacob" means that he protects all sons of Jacob in play except for Joseph(s).
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 12:22:36 AM »
+1
We have reviewed this question with the examples below in mind--

***

Quote
Lost Soul Psalm 119:176) (anti-angel) - If an angel rescues this card from your territory, you may place any other Lost Soul beneath owner's draw pile.

While not commonly used, it seemed to us that most people would agree this LS can underdeck another copy of itself.

Quote
Gamaliel's Speech - Place in your territory: You may discard this card to negate and discard the last Enhancement played by an opponent or any other Enhancement in play.

We know for certain that Gam's Speech has been ruled to be able to discard other Gam's Speeches.


Quote
James, Leader in Jerusalem - Protect other Jerusalem Heroes in territories from harm...

This card is identical to the Joseph question. Unfortunately it did not come up as a question in our PC playtest notes.

***

Our interpretation is that using "other" on Joseph and James, LiJ is a shorter form of saying (except 'card name'). We've ruled that cards that reference themselves only target that specific copy. Based on that and the cards listed above we concluded that CoW Joseph will protect an opponent's copy of Joseph (the son of Jacob).
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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 06:02:35 AM »
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And they will then also make eachother CBN then too?

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 08:48:44 AM »
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Indeed.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 09:20:06 AM »
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So CoW Joseph won't protect another CoW Joseph but it will protect Pa or FooF Joseph?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 09:31:13 AM »
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It will protect all other "son of Jacob" Josephs.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2017, 09:57:05 AM »
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It will protect all other "son of Jacob" Josephs.

Ok so any copy of Joseph, CoW or otherwise?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 10:22:47 AM »
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Joseph (PA), Joseph (FooF) and Joseph (CoW) are the same character so yes, CoW Joseph protects all of those.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 10:34:20 AM »
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Thanks
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 10:52:30 AM »
+1
For the record, I wasn't trying to be vague...I simply wanted to emphasize the whole "son of Jacob" thing lest anyone tried to be a smart alec and say "What about Joseph the Carpenter or Joseph of Arimethea?"  ::)
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joseph's protect.
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 11:47:40 AM »
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I know sometimes I may ask something about an answer that seems obvious to others, but I ask because the way something is worded can either be interpreted one way, or my mind just works a certain way and I want to be sure about the answer. 

I think a better way to have worded it would have been "...CoW Joseph will protect an opponent's copy of CoW Joseph or any other version of Joseph." That way, it directly answers the first question and covers the other versions of Joseph.  As for any smart aleck who would have tried to make an argument about JoA or JtC, I'm quite sure that person's question would have been ignored.  :)
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