Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on May 01, 2011, 03:20:41 PM
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Fishing Boat (Di)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set this aside. Each upkeep, you may place a Hero from here beneath your deck to draw X or to give your disciples access to all Sites this turn. • Identifiers: Holds up to 12 disciples. X = # of Heroes here • Verse: Luke 5:4 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
After I place heros in the boat during prep phase, can I also take them out of the boat the same prep phase?
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No
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You take them out during upkeep, not prep, and upkeep comes before prep.
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Here's my example:
I have 2 disciples in territory. I place one in boat. Set other aside with Pentecost. Remove disciple out of boat.
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Yes you can.
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Can I move an angel in Chamber to territory during prep phase?
Chamber of Angels (AW)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set this fortress aside. If holder's angel is being discarded, place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your draw pile. • Play As: If holder's angel is being discarded, heal and place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your deck. Chamber of Angels may hold any number of angels. • Identifiers: Play to set-aside area. • Verse: Revelation 4:8 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Rare)
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No, because it specifies how its contents are added and removed.
Apologies on the Fishing Boat question, I assumed you meant taking them out to use Boat's ability, but since you didn't mean that, Hobbit is correct.
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Chamber does not have a "holds" abilifier.
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Fortresses that allow you to add/remove characters as you wish, like Fishing Boat, KotW, Goshen, etc. can be used to add/remove/add/remove as many times as you need during your prep phase. One of my favorite plays with Disciples is to put all but one in the Boat, use Pentecost on the remaining Hero and then remove the rest from the Boat.
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But thats what Im saying. It seems like to me that Fishing Boat is more like Chamber in that it specifically reads how you take disciples out of the boat.
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But thats what Im saying. It seems like to me that Fishing Boat is more like Chamber in that it specifically reads how you take disciples out of the boat.
Chamber does not have a "holds" abilifier.
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Kingdoms does not have a hold identifier and it works just like fishing boat. Chamber does have a hold ability...but I don't know, seems to me that it is more clarifying than allowing you to take out. It allows them to get out by going to your deck and most likely only.
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Chamber does not have a "holds" abilifier.
The card does have a "holds" abilifier.
Fortresses that allow you to add/remove characters as you wish, like Fishing Boat, KotW, Goshen, etc. can be used to add/remove/add/remove as many times as you need during your prep phase. One of my favorite plays with Disciples is to put all but one in the Boat, use Pentecost on the remaining Hero and then remove the rest from the Boat.
KotW and Goshen (other than the promo) all say how and when characters are removed or added. It is not fair to include these with Fishing Boat, when Fishing Boat does not say the same thing. I think this whole idea of assumed prep phase entry and exit of characters into fortresses needs to be more clearly defined. I know this all came up before with Judge's Seat, but there is obviously a lack of clarity, especially for new players. This needs to be added to the sticky threads.
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KotW and Goshen (other than the promo) all say how and when characters are removed or added. It is not fair to include these with Fishing Boat, when Fishing Boat does not say the same thing.
Actually, I think that they should be in the same conversation. Fishing Boat DOES say how characters are removed. They are put on the bottom of the deck to give the player site access or the ability to draw cards. I think RTS's question is a good one, and my leaning is that because Fishing Boat specifies how to take characters out, that you cannot remove them whenever you want to simply put one back into your territory.
Since Gabe seems to disagree, I'll take this discussion over to the other side, and will try to get back with an answer soon.
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The elders discussed this some time ago and Rob gave his stamp of approval. I thought this had already been announced. I apologize if it was not.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
Works for me.
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"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
Works for me.
Right, and this is what i was remembering too- it does say how they are removed and that's what i was going by.
Fishing Boat (Di)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set this aside. Each upkeep, you may place a Hero from here beneath your deck to draw X or to give your disciples access to all Sites this turn. • Identifiers: Holds up to 12 disciples. X = # of Heroes here • Verse: Luke 5:4 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
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I agree with Gabe. Fishing Boat doesn't "describe how cards are both added and removed", only removed. Therefore, the second part applies (you may add or remove during prep).
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That ruling was well-announced too, idk how so many elders were totally unaware of it...oh yeah, because there's no unified ruling document.
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Can Disciples be added or removed ONLY during prep, or can they be put in in other phases as well (say, discard)?
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Can Disciples be added or removed ONLY during prep, or can they be put in in other phases as well (say, discard)?
They can be added or removed due to the Holds identifier only during prep; the only way to add or remove them during other phases is with a special ability (for example, Emp. Augustus would kick them all out of the Boat).
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Sorry if I'm slow but why can disciples be removed from boat?
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I have an idea that could help end these types of arguments once and for all:
On every card that says "holds X", add an (open) or (closed) to the end.
(open) would mean you could add or remove cards at will during the prep phase, while (closed) means that only special abilities can add or remove cards.
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The elders discussed this some time ago and Rob gave his stamp of approval. I thought this had already been announced. I apologize if it was not.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
Works for me.
So can I take my opponent's heroes out of Demonic Stronghold after I capture them? Or place them in from my land of bondage?
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I would say that you can take them out, but captured characters wouldn't be much good for you. As for putting them in, I'd give a tentative yes to that as well.
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I would say that you can take them out, but captured characters wouldn't be much good for you. As for putting them in, I'd give a tentative yes to that as well.
Yeah I can't really think of too many good reasons for taking them out but its always good to know your options. :)
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bump for further discussion
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The elders discussed this some time ago and Rob gave his stamp of approval. I thought this had already been announced. I apologize if it was not.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
Works for me.
We have a ruling with Rob's stamp of approval. What's left to discuss?
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Yeah, I am not sure what is left to discuss. They may be removed or added during prep phase, other than that they may only be moved via the SA on fishing boat or due to an SA on another card.
not sure what is left to debate.
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I think Clift just likes to debate for the fun of it.
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I think Clift just likes to debate for the fun of it.
Nah. He just has slept since the last debate. Brain Rebooted.
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Sorry if I'm slow but why can disciples be removed from boat?
The boat gives a remove condition (being placed beneath deck) so why can they be removed during prep?
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Because it does not describe how they go in.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
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Because it does not describe how they go in.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
But why?
If there's a remove condition printed on the card doesn't that over ride the default?
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If there's a remove condition printed on the card doesn't that over ride the default?
Yes or no: Does fishing boat describe how cards are BOTH added and removed?
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Because it does not describe how they go in.
"If a Fortress with a holds ability does not describe how cards are both added and removed then you may add or remove cards during your preparation phase."
But why?
If there's a remove condition printed on the card doesn't that over ride the default?
I believe they made the rule to make Goshen work, logically it applies to fishing boat as well. Other you could never place anybody in the fortress. You could make a rule that says you can put them but cannot take them out however that would make Goshen useless.
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For Goshen since no input/output condition is listed you may put characters in and take them out in the prep phase.
For Fishing Boat since there is an output condition but no input condition you may put characters in during the prep phase but you may only take them out by using the output condition (being placed beneath deck).
This would go a long way towards balancing Disciples :P
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This would go a long way towards balancing Disciples :P
Assuming that there is a "problem" with Disciples, Fishing Boat is hardly the culprit.
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An input AND an output condition need to be specified in order for it to override.
Also: Goshen's useful?
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Also: Goshen's useful?
It'll be more useful next year for at least a couple reasons.
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This would go a long way towards balancing Disciples :P
Assuming that there is a "problem" with Disciples, Fishing Boat is hardly the culprit.
I don't understand how your statement follows. JSB isn't saying that Fishing Boat is the problem with Disciples. He is saying that if you eliminated unwarranted protection, non-negatable site access, or excessive drawing gained for essentially no cost that it would help to counterbalance the parts of Disciples that are broken.
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An input AND an output condition need to be specified in order for it to override.
But why?
that makes no logical sense
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I think it does. It allows you to have cards that function in some way as protection forts also have other abilities dealing with adding/removing cards (like Goshen, Fishing Boat, and Tower of Thebez). Granted the ruling came about as a hot fix for Goshen, but now that it's here it's a good rule.
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.absolutepunk.net%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FStandard%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=5562fcb17fb3464abaaf50e43f471b1ab81bca4c)
this is less of a debate and more of "but wwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyy can't i have the candy" at this point.
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An input AND an output condition need to be specified in order for it to override.
But why?
Because that is how it has been ruled.
that makes no logical sense
Huh? Rules need to be internally consistent, but why do you think they need to make logical sense? Seriously, what logical sense is there in drawing three cards at the beginning of a turn, or that protect beats cannot be negated or that immune followed by ignore is a stalemate or... ?