Author Topic: Fishing Boat vs. Teammates Heroes (Read 3015 times)

Master KChief · « **on:** November 21, 2010, 10:50:42 AM »

my teammate puts one of his disciples in fishing boat. on my turn during my upkeep, i want to place his hero in fishing boat under deck to give my disciples site access. who's deck does it go under?

Fishing Boat (Di)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set this aside. Each upkeep, you may place a Hero from here beneath your deck to draw X or to give your disciples access to all Sites this turn. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 5:4 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:08:12 AM »

nobody because it says beneath you deck. If you use his heroes it goes to his deck. So you didn't fulfill the cost to get the benefit.

Master KChief · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:18:00 AM »

why can the cost not be fulfilled? what is stopping you from doing so?

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:35:13 AM »

because it says your deck. it's not going to your deck it's going to your teammate's deck...

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:36:34 AM »

thats what im saying, why would it go to your teammates deck?

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:45:05 AM »

you can't put his cards in your deck. it's a game rule

Master KChief · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:47:19 AM »

im not sure if thats a rule or not, but even still, thats why special abilities are 'special', because they get around normal game rules.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2010, 12:05:01 PM »

I know that is the case for most rules and cards and agree with you. However there are certain "hard game rules" that cannot be overridden by any ability or card. Examples: hero abilities not converting to evil characters, characters not banding to opposite alignment, and the new 16 card hand limit vs. the old 8 card hand limit (I still think it is unnecessary and undesirable to have the new hand limit). I think that not putting cards in your deck that belong to someone else is one of those "hard" rules.

I also happen to wish this was not the case. I think it should be a default rule that cards go to owner's deck but I also think it would allow for more interesting strategies if it was possible for cards to specifically instruct you to shuffle/place cards in a deck regardless of owner. I really like teams and this goes along with my wish that teams rules would be more open to allow more possible strategies and teamwork.

P.S. Is there any list of the "hard" rules that cannot be overridden?

Master KChief · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2010, 12:22:08 PM »

for the most part i do agree with that explanation. but what if there was, say for instance, a card created that said 'convert a hero to an evil character. evil character retains its special ability'? wouldnt the ability work as stated, despite there being a 'hard rule' about converted heroes not retaining their special ability? thats how i view fishing boat, that despite the fact there is a rule that says you cannot put other players cards into your draw pile (i actually cant find an entry in the REG for this), the special ability is overriding that.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2010, 12:37:24 PM »

My point about "hard rules" is that they are unbending rules that have no exceptions and can have no exceptions. They are the rules that cannot be overridden by abilities on cards. With the 16 card hand limit for example, you could frequently have card abilities that conflict by instructing you to hold more than 16 cards in your hand (draw 8, etc.) but the rule will always trump the card ability, no exceptions. This is obviously very different than the original rule about 8 cards in hand or most other rules.

So for your example, if they made a convert card like you said then they would either have to change the rule or errata the card. In theory they could change the rule by allowing specific exceptions; they thought about Tables of the Law changing the 16 hand limit but they didn't do that and so far I don't see them wanting any exceptions for these rules. That might be for simplicity sake but not sure.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2010, 12:52:27 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2010, 12:22:08 PM

for the most part i do agree with that explanation. but what if there was, say for instance, a card created that said 'convert a hero to an evil character. evil character retains its special ability'? wouldnt the ability work as stated, despite there being a 'hard rule' about converted heroes not retaining their special ability?

They simply would not create such a card. If they did, then the rules will change at that time. Falling Away certainly changed what was a "Hard Rule," as will Goliath when he is released.

For now, I agree with the idea of "Hard Rules," such as not banding an EC to the Hero side of a battle.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2010, 12:58:10 PM »

on a somewhat related note, if my teammate has, say for instance, a thomas in fishing boat, am i allowed to put my thomas in there as well?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2010, 01:16:21 PM »

No. Infact, I believe if your buddy has Thomas in Boat, you can't even put your Thomas in territory.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2010, 02:08:16 PM »

But you can pass your Disciples to him, as long as he's not controlling another copy.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2010, 02:25:59 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 21, 2010, 01:16:21 PM

No. Infact, I believe if your buddy has Thomas in Boat, you can't even put your Thomas in territory.

But, you can roll your wooden Thomas the Tank Engine all over your territory and say, "I'm a really useful engine."

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2010, 02:52:59 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 21, 2010, 11:45:05 AM

you can't put his cards in your deck. it's a game rule

Some rules can be changed by card abilities. This isn't one of them.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2010, 03:22:09 PM »

Taking Egypt's Wealth
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 4 / 2 • Class: none • Special Ability: Look at opponent’s hand and take one enhancement there into your hand. • Play As: Search opponent’s hand for any enhancement and place it in your hand. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Exodus 12:35 • Availability: G Deck

And then I Mayhem. What now?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2010, 03:31:31 PM »

Cards are always returned to the owner's draw pile. There is already a precedent for this:

Instant Special Abilities > Capture > How to Use
Captured characters treated as Lost Souls return to their owner’s draw pile if a special ability returns it to a draw pile (shuffled, placed beneath, etc.). The shuffled character cards return to face value.

This rule was instituted to avert the Pokemon Disaster of 1999, when high school students were beating elementary school students in Pokemon games and then taking their valuable cards. This is why Pokemon was banned from schools for eternity.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2010, 08:13:58 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on November 21, 2010, 12:05:01 PM

I know that is the case for most rules and cards and agree with you. However there are certain "hard game rules" that cannot be overridden by any ability or card. Examples: hero abilities not converting to evil characters, characters not banding to opposite alignment, and the new 16 card hand limit vs. the old 8 card hand limit (I still think it is unnecessary and undesirable to have the new hand limit). I think that not putting cards in your deck that belong to someone else is one of those "hard" rules.

What is he talking about here? sounds like someone is confused. Can I hold 16 cards in hand now?

Master KChief · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2010, 08:21:30 PM »

no, the rule is still the same.

is there a special rule for 'your' in teams however? i thought there was, but i cant remember...

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2010, 08:24:54 PM »

I thought the new rule was that you could not have more than 16 cards in your hand at any one time. There was previously no limit.

The limit of 8 cards at the end of your turn has not changed.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2010, 09:04:33 PM »

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2010, 10:00:51 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 21, 2010, 02:52:59 PM

Some rules can be changed by card abilities. This isn't one of them.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 21, 2010, 08:24:54 PM

I thought the new rule was that you could not have more than 16 cards in your hand at any one time. There was previously no limit. The limit of 8 cards at the end of your turn has not changed.

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2010, 08:21:30 PM

is there a special rule for 'your' in teams however? i thought there was, but i cant remember...

There used to be. However, this was one of the things that got dropped when TEAMS became an official category (for the sake of simplicity and consistency with other formats of play).

Quote from: galadgawyn on November 21, 2010, 12:05:01 PM

P.S. Is there any list of the "hard" rules that cannot be overridden?

Unfortunately, no. I kinda looked at this on the other side of the board, but wasn't able to really get very far with it.

Master KChief · « **Reply #23 on:** November 21, 2010, 10:08:36 PM »

are you sure prof? i thought the only thing that got changed by rob was playing sog or nj with a teammates sog/nj and doubt being played directly to battle. i thought the teams definition of 'your' stuck.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 21, 2010, 01:16:21 PM

No. Infact, I believe if your buddy has Thomas in Boat, you can't even put your Thomas in territory.

i thought the duplicates rule only applied to in play. couldnt you technically have a thomas in territory and a thomas in fishing boat since it is set-aside?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #24 on:** November 21, 2010, 11:26:05 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2010, 10:08:36 PM

are you sure prof? i thought the only thing that got changed by rob was playing sog or nj with a teammates sog/nj and doubt being played directly to battle. i thought the teams definition of 'your' stuck.

Yeah, I'm sure. This was one of those Rob rulings, and therefore is 100%.

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Author Topic: Fishing Boat vs. Teammates Heroes (Read 3015 times)

Rawrlolsauce!