Author Topic: Fishing Boat Questions (Read 4211 times)

JDS · « **on:** August 16, 2010, 09:18:08 AM »

My understanding is that characters can be added or removed from Fortresses any time during the prep phase, which is after the upkeep phase. So am I correct in believing that Fishing Boat's ability can not be activated on the same turn that it's put into play?

Fishing Boat: Set this aside. Each upkeep, you may place a Hero from here beneath your deck to draw X or to give your disciples access to all Sites this turn.

Ryupeco11 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2010, 09:24:10 AM »

I believe that should be correct. it's similar to how i can put a judge in judges seat but i have to wait till next turn to use the ability because i have already passed my upkeep when i put it out in my prep. phase.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2010, 10:16:25 AM »

Yes. You set the Fortress aside during your prep phase, and you load it up with Disciples during your prep phase. On your next turn's upkeep phase, you can put one of them under to draw or give Disciples access.

JDS · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2010, 03:25:02 PM »

If characters can be both added to and removed from Fishing Boat during the prep phase, can I take out a hero, activate an Artifact, and then return that hero? (ex. Peter & Four-Drachma)

Professoralstad · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2010, 03:33:29 PM »

I don't know if it's a rule or not, but I would say no. I view it similarly to deactivating Lampstand, playing an Evil Dominant, and reactivating it, which I know is not allowable. I don't really have any other argument than that however, and that might not be a comparable situation.

JDS · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2010, 04:13:10 PM »

I believe that would be because a player has chosen to deactivate an artifact without activating anything else. There can only be one Artifact pile activation per turn.

SirNobody · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2010, 11:37:51 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: JDS on August 16, 2010, 03:25:02 PM

If characters can be both added to and removed from Fishing Boat during the prep phase, can I take out a hero, activate an Artifact, and then return that hero? (ex. Peter & Four-Drachma)

Yes that would be allowed. Putting a character in a fortress can be done an unlimited number of times during the prep phase. Activating an artifact (or choosing to have none active) can only be done once during the prep phase, thus the difference between this and the lampstand example.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Smokey · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2010, 03:12:46 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on August 17, 2010, 03:00:15 PM

Putting a character in a fortress can be done an unlimited number of times during the prep phase.

Why can you add characters unlimitedly to a fortress during prep phase? Can you remove them unlimitedly as well? Does that mean in the case of Goshen or Judge's Seat I can switch characters out endlessly, and eventually time out if I wanted to (not that I would want to)? That doesn't seem right...

You would be called out for stalling, just because you can do something limitlessly doesn't mean you will ever need to.

Master_Chi · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2010, 04:57:38 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 16, 2010, 11:37:51 PM

Hey,

Quote from: JDS on August 16, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
If characters can be both added to and removed from Fishing Boat during the prep phase, can I take out a hero, activate an Artifact, and then return that hero? (ex. Peter & Four-Drachma)

Yes that would be allowed. Putting a character in a fortress can be done an unlimited number of times during the prep phase. Activating an artifact (or choosing to have none active) can only be done once during the prep phase, thus the difference between this and the lampstand example.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Even though Fishing Boat's special ability specifically states "During each UPKEEP you may place a Hero from here"?

Arch Angel · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2010, 05:15:13 PM »

I thought the rule was that you can only add/remove cards from a Fortress in the prep phase if the Fortress doesn't specify another way to add/remove cards. Fishing Boat specifies how to remove cards from it (place them under deck during Upkeep phase) so are you even able to remove cards from Fishing Boat once they're in it?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2010, 08:18:12 AM »

Just like the Goshen promo, you can add/remove characters from the Fishing Boat during your prep phase.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2010, 02:03:42 PM »

But Goshen has a Play As that allows for that.

SirNobody · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2010, 02:06:17 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Arch Angel on August 18, 2010, 02:03:42 PM

But Goshen has a Play As that allows for that.

If Goshen does it with play as, then Goshen would do it without play as as well.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Arch Angel · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2010, 02:17:48 PM »

The Rulebook says that during the prep phase you may You may add or remove cards in a fortress as described on the fortress, though. Are you saying that I can add a Prophet to Obadiah's Caves during my prep phase just because I feel like it?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2010, 04:25:47 PM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on August 18, 2010, 02:17:48 PM

The Rulebook says that during the prep phase you may You may add or remove cards in a fortress as described on the fortress, though. Are you saying that I can add a Prophet to Obadiah's Caves during my prep phase just because I feel like it?

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17376.msg273651#msg273651

That was the point that made Bryon admit that it needed a play as over a year ago. It finally got that play as with the REG update recently.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2010, 03:52:36 AM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on August 18, 2010, 02:17:48 PM

The Rulebook says that during the prep phase you may You may add or remove cards in a fortress as described on the fortress, though. Are you saying that I can add a Prophet to Obadiah's Caves during my prep phase just because I feel like it?

Can I get a ruling on this, please? I would like to know.

Bryon · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2010, 10:26:38 AM »

This will be posted in a sticky thread soon, but here's a quick answer so that it can be put to rest:

If a fortress has an OPTIONAL way for characters to enter or exit the fort, then it is in ADDITION to the in-n-out allowed by "holds."

If a fortress has a NON-OPTIONAL way for characters to enter and/or exit the fort, then it REPLACES the in-n-out allowed by "holds."

Thus, the "play as" for Goshen is no longer needed, and Fishing Boat works as intended. A side effect of this rule is that you are allowed to add a hero to The Name of the Lord during the prep phase, but I doubt that will be a game breaker.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2010, 11:10:54 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on August 20, 2010, 10:26:38 AM

Thus, the "play as" for Goshen is no longer needed, and Fishing Boat works as intended. A side effect of this rule is that you are allowed to add a hero to The Name of the Lord during the prep phase, but I doubt that will be a game breaker.

That's actually kind of cool, so now people can have a Kerith Ravine-like fortress that can hold NT Heroes and Angels. Maybe TNotL will see some more play now...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »

Other changes:

Potters Field: Set this site aside. Holder's Heroes to be discarded are instead placed in this site, Treat them as discarded Heroes.

Can I finally pull heroes out of Potters Field during my prep phase? Would they be considered "freshly discarded" for healing cards?

Demonic Stronghold: If holder’s demon captures a Hero, place that Hero here. Holder’s demons gain 1/1 for each Hero here.

Can I pull the captured heroes out of here? If so, do they turn into lost souls, or regular heroes?

Dust and Ashes: When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated. Plays to Set-Aside.

Can I put Job in here if say, I wanted to use Zebelun or simply get him out of my territory for some other reason?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2010, 11:21:53 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 20, 2010, 11:15:18 AM

Other changes:

Potters Field: Set this site aside. Holder's Heroes to be discarded are instead placed in this site, Treat them as discarded Heroes.

Can I finally pull heroes out of Potters Field during my prep phase? Would they be considered "freshly discarded" for healing cards?

Potter's Field is non-optional, so the in/out allowed by "Holds" is replaced. So, no. Potter's Field is still largely useless.

Quote

Demonic Stronghold: If holder’s demon captures a Hero, place that Hero here. Holder’s demons gain 1/1 for each Hero here.

Can I pull the captured heroes out of here? If so, do they turn into lost souls, or regular heroes?

Also non-optional. So you can't pull them out as the Holds would allow you to do.

Quote

Dust and Ashes: When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated. Plays to Set-Aside.

Can I put Job in here if say, I wanted to use Zebelun or simply get him out of my territory for some other reason?

It is an optional ability, but only when the condition is met, so for now I would rule no.

FWIW, the playtesters examined all of the Fortresses that can hold characters and only came up with Name of the Lord as the extra benefit (aside from making Goshen and Fishing Boat useful) so I don't think many other exceptions will come up. You can keep trying if you'd like though.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 20, 2010, 11:49:06 AM »

There is no out at all on those first two, meaning the default way to remove cards takes precident. right? Otherwise, how do cards like Judges Seat work?

If what you're saying is true, then I should be able to optionally remove heroes from The Name of the Lord as well, since one part is optional, making the whole thing optional.

The Name of the Lord is conditional, yet bryon said you can put dudes into it.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** August 20, 2010, 11:59:46 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 20, 2010, 11:49:06 AM

There is no out at all on those first two, meaning the default way to remove cards takes precident. right? Otherwise, how do cards like Judges Seat work?

Quote from: Bryon on August 20, 2010, 10:26:38 AM

If a fortress has a NON-OPTIONAL way for characters to enter and/or exit the fort, then it REPLACES the in-n-out allowed by "holds."

They don't have an out, but they have a non-optional in. It says enter and/or exit.

The Holds identifier allows you to put in/take out characters during your prep phase (unless the entry/exit is non-optional).

Quote

If what you're saying is true, then I should be able to optionally remove heroes from The Name of the Lord as well, since one part is optional, making the whole thing optional.

The Name of the Lord is conditional, yet bryon said you can put dudes into it.

That's a good point. The entry is conditionally optional but the exit is not. So I guess I can't say for sure what the correct answer is.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 20, 2010, 12:08:26 PM »

The or means it could be just the entry clause.

Entry and/or exit means any of the following:

non optional entry
non optional exit
non optional entry and exit.

Bryons post was unclear about what parts of the card become optional or non option. Based on his post, if I can add heroes to The Name of the Lord, but not remove them, then that means the optional/non-optional applies only the the specific part of the card.

Meaning:

TNotL has an optional entry, and a nonoptional exit. You can put people in during the prep phase, but you cant take them out.

So, what happens in the following situations?

1) Non optional in - No exit (Demonic Stronghold)
2) Optional in - no exit (Goshen Promo)
4) optional in - non optional out. (The Name of the Lord)
5) No in - Optional out (Fishing Boat)
6) No in - No exit (Judges Seat)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2010, 12:12:05 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 20, 2010, 12:08:26 PM

Summary: The game is broken, kthxbai.

Fixed for lazy readers.

That being said, I am very interested to see how this gets resolved. Clearly this is an issue as this is second time this has come up in a year.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2010, 12:40:30 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 20, 2010, 12:08:26 PM

The or means it could be just the entry clause.

Entry and/or exit means any of the following:

non optional entry
non optional exit
non optional entry and exit.

Bryons post was unclear about what parts of the card become optional or non option. Based on his post, if I can add heroes to The Name of the Lord, but not remove them, then that means the optional/non-optional applies only the the specific part of the card.

Meaning:

TNotL has an optional entry, and a nonoptional exit. You can put people in during the prep phase, but you cant take them out.

Actually, it probably means that we were a bit flippant in deciding how TNotL could be used. Something needs to be added to Bryon's assessment about optional in and non-optional out, or vice versa. I think it really comes down to what takes precedence, the optional rule or the non-optional rule. I would vote for the optional rule, as that would allow TNotL to be more useful, and would probably make Dust and Ashes more useful (by allowing you to put Job in it from territory).

Quote

So, what happens in the following situations?

1) Non optional in - No exit (Demonic Stronghold)
2) Optional in - no exit (Goshen Promo)
4) optional in - non optional out. (The Name of the Lord)
5) No in - Optional out (Fishing Boat)
6) No in - No exit (Judges Seat)

1) The captured heroes are stuck there until released.
2) The Holds allows optional in and out for any heroes (up to three brigades) during prep phase, and Genesis/Exodus heroes who reach */0 or less anytime.
4) Under review--or should be
5) The Holds allows optional in and out (of any number of disciples) during prep phase and optional out during upkeep.
6)The Holds allows optional in and out of a good, gold Judge during prep phase.

News:

Author Topic: Fishing Boat Questions (Read 4211 times)

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