Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on July 25, 2016, 11:21:28 AM
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We'd like to fix something in the game mechanics that we believe is broken. While rare, the situations created frustrates players and judges alike.
Creating a form of "priority" or "turn based initiative" will provide us a system for determining what to do when multiple cards are triggered at the same time or when multiple people wish to play a Dominant at the same time. The proposal is outlined below.
Like all the "feedback welcome posts", this is a change that could be implemented after Nationals.
Add the following to the triggered abilities entry:
If two mandatory triggered abilities activate at the same time, the active player resolves all abilities they control in the order they choose, then inactive players resolve all abilities they control in the order they choose in turn order around the table.
If two optional triggered abilities activate at the same time, the active player chooses whether or not to resolve all of their abilities first in the order they choose, then inactive players choose whether or not to resolve all abilities they control in the order they choose in turn order around the table.
Change the Dominant entry in the glossary to read as follows:
A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. All special abilities on dominants cannot be negated. A dominant can be played at any time on the active players turn regardless of initiative.
The active player has the first opportunity to play dominant cards during each phase of their turn. Then the opportunity to play dominant cards is given to inactive players in turn order. The opportunity to play dominants can be passed multiple times if needed. When all players have declined to play a dominant card the game may move to the next phase or turn.
During the battle phase, the active player has the first opportunity to play dominants, regardless of initiative. The next opportunity is given to the inactive player who is being attacked, then passed to all other inactive players in turn order. Repeat this process to determine who is allowed to play dominants each after any special ability (or batch of special abilities) is complete.
We welcome your feedback and questions about how this might impact the game we all enjoy.
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So with this you can't just block and play Grapes? Did i read that right? You would have to give the active player the chance to play AoL?
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So with this you can't just block and play Grapes? Did i read that right? You would have to give the active player the chance to play AoL?
Correct, that was one of the specific scenarios discussed as part of this.
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So right after your opponent's draw, can you still drop Mayhem?
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So right after your opponent's draw, can you still drop Mayhem?
Yes, you just have to let your opponent play any Doms they want first.
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So right after your opponent's draw, can you still drop Mayhem?
Yes, you just have to let your opponent play any Doms they want first.
Correct.
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To expand, think of it like in battle. You can't just throw an EC in and then an enhancement, you have to be sure no doms are being played. Same thing here, you would have to check first (and nothing would stop you from asking even if not playing anything, just like now during battle).
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I don't necessarily like that this nerfs defense slightly (insomuch as the Grapes/AotL example mentioned above) but I'm all for getting rid of dominant slapjack as a whole.
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I don't necessarily like that this nerfs defense slightly (insomuch as the Grapes/AotL example mentioned above) but I'm all for getting rid of dominant slapjack as a whole.
I agree. While dominants are a huge part of what makes Redemption what it is, I still think they are almost a flaw to the game itself haha.
The rule change makes sense to me and is something that probably should have been implemented years ago. :)
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I dislike this only because it's a half-measure. The active player should have the option to do *everything* on his own phase before passing the option.
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I dislike this only because it's a half-measure. The active player should have the option to do *everything* on his own phase before passing the option
I agree, but I was out voted. Others thought that would be too big of a change.
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Vote Gabe for real progress!
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I dislike this only because it's a half-measure. The active player should have the option to do *everything* on his own phase before passing the option.
Can you explain a but further? I don't understand what you mean by everything.
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During your prep and discard (main 1 and 2 basically), like every other card game, the player whose turn it is always has the first option.
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Can you explain a but further? I don't understand what you mean by everything.
During your prep and discard (main 1 and 2 basically), like every other card game, the player whose turn it is always has the first option.
So Xonathan, that basically means that Player 1 would get to do anything they want on their Prep Phase - Zadok Anoints Solomon, draw from Pentecost, activate/deactivate Arts, move characters into fortresses, do stuff with sites/LS, play TC GEs and EEs, etc. Once they decide they are done and want to push a hero into battle, THEN the opponent could play Doms.
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And activate their other activatable abilities and anything else they can do on an opponent's main phase.
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The consensus of the discussion was that allowing all cards and activated abilities to be used before passing the chance to use doms or activated abilities can cause some of the messiest cascades (especially with negated draws or searches) and also moves away from the intention of certain cards and effects. This was why the consensus proposal at this time was written as appears in the first post, though I doubt the discussion will end there.
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Thanks guys I get it now. I agree with Pol. I think that will allow the game to be more enjoyable.
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I dislike this only because it's a half-measure. The active player should have the option to do *everything* on his own phase before passing the option.
During your prep and discard (main 1 and 2 basically), like every other card game, the player whose turn it is always has the first option.
Missed what the combination here meant as to what was being advocated on the first go-through, and wanted to address it as well. Many other card games do allow players "priority" during their turn; however, those same games (and especially "the" game we would be referencing) also have a stack, which allows each other player to respond. So in comparable games you don't have the ability to just play literally everything without giving your opponent a chance to respond. The use of a stack in those games also means that cascade-negation of something that has already completed doesn't happen, which is a very real concern here in Redemption (as noted in my last post).
On that tangent, if Redemption ever went to a stack system, I don't think that we could do so without a similar priority system as other games which use stacks, though that's a whole other discussion obviously.
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Another difference with Redemption is that the object of the game is not to reduce a predetermined number of points (or life total) to zero. The win condition is typically created on the opponent's turn when they draw cards. Allowing interaction (at least with Dominants) prior to the active player making an undetermined number of "moves" makes more sense in Redemption than it does in other CCGs.
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Many other card games do allow players "priority" during their turn; however, those same games (and especially "the" game we would be referencing) also have a stack, which allows each other player to respond.
I was thinking about this after this rule was change was proposed. I think Redemption could have a stack, but I do believe that some cards would become useless (that's a given) and some would become really good. The idea of the stack is so that players can stop, think about it for a second and continue or pass. In THE Game, you could literally respond to anything and I mean ANYTHING for awhile. (Example: in response to you drawing, in response to you playing that, in response to you taking that breath... it got a bit out of hand.)
I think that the initiative aspect of Redemption helps mitigate that and also gives Redemption some of it's awesomeness (while some confusion can come from it) and helps make the mechanics what they are.
The Mechanics are a huge factor!