Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on July 08, 2016, 11:22:39 AM
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The elder team has agreed to make a change to the game rule that "discard piles may not be viewed apart from a special ability" after Nationals when the next REG update is released. We'd like to propose the following entry be added to the REG glossary. There is not presently any entry defining the discard pile so this is 100% new.
Discard Pile
The discard pile is kept face up in a players Out of Play area. The discard pile contains cards that have been used or otherwise discarded during the course of the game. Cards in the discard pile are viewable by any player at any time.
This change will allow any player to look at any discard pile at any time (while maintaining the time limits for tournament play).
We welcome your feedback and questions about how this might impact the game we all enjoy.
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I assume a card that says "search discard pile" is still a search ability now? But a SA that just takes a card from dc pile without using the word "search" isn't?
Either way, I'm really like this change. I often forget which cards I've played. Especially in T2, remembering how many I have left of a certain card can be tricky. Just being able to look is more of a personal preference that makes the game more kind to those who can't always remember what they have played or has been discarded previously.
Also, it fixes healing and makes HSR not as powerful, which is a nice bonus.
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A card that says to search discard pile is still a search.
Healing is an entirely different subject but very likely will not involve any search after the updates to the REG.
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I like this change too!
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What was the reasoning among the elders to make this change?
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Absolutely in favor of this change. Most games that I've played with a discard pile have that pile be a known location to all players. The exceptions are those with specific mechanics/game play reasons to keep the discard pile hidden. I don't believe that Redemption has those type of mechanics or game play concerns that necessitate discard being a hidden zone.
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Absolutely in favor of this change. Most games that I've played with a discard pile have that pile be a known location to all players. The exceptions are those with specific mechanics/game play reasons to keep the discard pile hidden. I don't believe that Redemption has those type of mechanics or game play concerns that necessitate discard being a hidden zone.
+1 Been wanting this for YEARS.
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I guess I'm curious why it is defined as this: 'The discard pile is kept face up in a players Out of Play area.'
I think that could cause some confusion between removed from play and discarded.
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I guess I'm curious why it is defined as this: 'The discard pile is kept face up in a players Out of Play area.'
I think that could cause some confusion between removed from play and discarded.
Removed from play isn't a thing. Removed from the game is. That part is there to clarify that even though they are now face up and visible, they aren't in play.
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Removed from play isn't a thing. Removed from the game is. That part is there to clarify that even though they are now face up and visible, they aren't in play.
I fully understand, but if they aren't in play, how can you target them with abilities? (Just thinking from a new player perspective).
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Removed from play isn't a thing. Removed from the game is. That part is there to clarify that even though they are now face up and visible, they aren't in play.
I fully understand, but if they aren't in play, how can you target them with abilities? (Just thinking from a new player perspective).
Same way you target something that's in a hand, deck, or set-aside area.
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Correct, "in play" is just the default when it doesn't specify.
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I'm also in favor of this change. JM's post sums up my thoughts.
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I am in favour of this.
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Even though I'm not active in the game anymore... I'm not sure how I feel about this change.
I was a big proponent of being able to look at your discard pile for a number of years and eventually I just gave up trying to fight for it and excepted that it would never change :P I dig the simplicity the new rule change brings but I do feel it makes Redemption a touch less competitive.
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For the record, I dissented on the part about being able to look at an opponent's discard pile whenever you want. I initially opposed the change outright, but after some consideration decided looking at one's own discard pile should not be a big deal. I still don't like the idea of someone being able to just decide they want to look at my discard pile while I'm in the middle of a battle with someone else (in a multi-player game).
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I still don't like the idea of someone being able to just decide they want to look at my discard pile while I'm in the middle of a battle with someone else (in a multi-player game).
Wowowow what? Is that really a thing? For what it's worth, I know I for sure glazed over that part in the fine print and I'm certain I'm not the only person who missed that.
The new rule gives a HUGE boost to both players. While this might be an extreme example, I find that almost equal to having Urim and Thummim or promo John becoming a game rule, instead of an artifact or hero ability.
I can fully support looking at your OWN discard pile. In my opinion it simplifies things which makes the game a bit less competitive but it makes sense at least.
I do not support being able to look at your opponents discard pile. I cannot name another game that allows you to do that and I feel that is simplifying things too far.
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that is true, I would prefer only being able to look at your own draw pile. It oesnt make sense to me for my opponent to look at my discard.
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I cannot name another game that allows you to do that and I feel that is simplifying things too far.
Pretty much all of them let you ;)
EDIT: I'll clarify with examples: The three biggest games in the same category as Redemption are Magic, Pokemon, and Yu-Gi Oh. In all three of these games, the discard pile is "public knowledge," meaning any player can look through any discard pile at any time. No problems have been caused there at all, so I'm not sure how we'd have any issues either.
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I cannot name another game that allows you to do that and I feel that is simplifying things too far.
Pretty much all of them let you ;)
I will back this up as a vigorous watcher of other games' high level tournament streams, people look at discard piles quite a bit.
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The ability to scan through any discard pile at any time is very common among the CCG world. Actually, to my knowledge, Redemption is the only one that restricts it at all. Players will not be able to take "extra" time to do this but will have to find ways to include discard pile scanning into their regular game play. When it is not your turn would be the most advantageous time, but you also don't want to miss triggers you opponent may or may not be setting off. It adds more more information available to the players while giving you another option to weigh as far as what you focus on during the game. You don't want to TILT!
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I guess I'm wrong then!
Back when I was vocal about supporting looking at your discard pile I was told by more than one elder that no other games allowed you to look at discard piles :dunno:
While I don't follow the big three CCG's anymore I still can't name another current game where looking at any discard pile is kosher. I'm fairly certain all of the Fantasy Flight LCG's and I know for sure Hearthstone don't allow you to look at any discard pile.
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The ability to scan through any discard pile at any time is very common among the CCG world. Actually, to my knowledge, Redemption is the only one that restricts it at all. Players will not be able to take "extra" time to do this but will have to find ways to include discard pile scanning into their regular game play. When it is not your turn would be the most advantageous time, but you also don't want to miss triggers you opponent may or may not be setting off. It adds more more information available to the players while giving you another option to weigh as far as what you focus on during the game. You don't want to TILT!
Someone going through my discard pile while I'm trying to focus on a battle is what would put me on tilt...
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While I don't follow the big three CCG's anymore I still can't name another current game where looking at any discard pile is kosher. I'm fairly certain all of the Fantasy Flight LCG's and I know for sure Hearthstone don't allow you to look at any discard pile.
Hearthstone being an electronic-only game that also has card/event generation effects, it's not something we could compare to a physical CCG.
I just did some quick looking at Fantasy Flight games. The first two games I found that are popular for them are Game of Thrones and Star Wars.
The Game of Thrones game has an explicit mention in the rules that their discard piles (there are two types of piles for each player) are viewable by any player at any time. The Star Wars game has an FAQ that clarifies that any player can view any discard pile at any time.
I'm actually struggling to find a comparable card game that has any rules about hiding the discard piles...
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Someone going through my discard pile while I'm trying to focus on a battle is what would put me on tilt...
Good to know. ::)
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While I don't follow the big three CCG's anymore I still can't name another current game where looking at any discard pile is kosher. I'm fairly certain all of the Fantasy Flight LCG's and I know for sure Hearthstone don't allow you to look at any discard pile.
Hearthstone being an electronic-only game that also has card/event generation effects, it's not something we could compare to a physical CCG.
I just did some quick looking at Fantasy Flight games. The first two games I found that are popular for them are Game of Thrones and Star Wars.
The Game of Thrones game has an explicit mention in the rules that their discard piles (there are two types of piles for each player) are viewable by any player at any time. The Star Wars game has an FAQ that clarifies that any player can view any discard pile at any time.
I'm actually struggling to find a comparable card game that has any rules about hiding the discard piles...
Haha guess I'm double wrong :P This is why I don't post much on the boards anymore haha
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Haha guess I'm double wrong :P This is why I don't post much on the boards anymore haha
It's a shame you're not as active here. You usually offer great insight. This is a rare occasion where maybe you spoke based on inaccurate information.
I have such great memories of play testing with you and your unorthodox ways. Last weekend at MN States I joked that I should take 3 Prophets packs for sealed deck. I don't think anyone else could pull off a win with that though. 8)
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Someone going through my discard pile while I'm trying to focus on a battle is what would put me on tilt...
Good to know. ::)
Anyone is free to try and see how it goes for them.
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I can fully support looking at your OWN discard pile. I do not support being able to look at your opponent's discard pile.
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How come?
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I'm fine with people going through discard piles (either players'), I would consider saying it can only be done on initiatives though.
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Why?
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How come?
I think it will help the older and more competitive players. If I'm playing Justin Alstad or John Earley they would probably figure out what I have left in my deck by looking at my discard pile. I would rather keep them guessing a bit. I'm always for the underdog which is what I am when I play them.
Looking at your own discard pile would help all players especially the younger ones who might not remember what they have played.
Having helped train a number of RLK's to beat Sir Nobody I don't think they would have beat him if Tim would have been able to look at their discard pile.
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The best players will know what's left in your deck anyway because they will be keeping track. Memory really shouldn't be a defining skill of the game when allowing both players to see the discard is cleaner, simpler and what just about literally ever other game has done for years without any trouble.
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I agree with everytribe. I think players should only look at there own d/c pile. I feel that will keep it a little more competitive and reduce time consumption.
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I agree with everytribe. I think players should only look at there own d/c pile. I feel that will keep it a little more competitive and reduce time consumption.
Keeping things competitive does not jive with giving an advantage to players with better memory. If you actually want more competitive play, and play that doesn't just rely on memory and misplays due to a poor one but strategy and appropriately-timed responses, then you actually want to be able to view the discard piles.
Time consumption is also not an issue, and there isn't really any way to say otherwise; Redemption is the only game in this format that I can find that has hidden discard piles, and yet none of those other games have had any time-related issues whatsoever. We also have rules about the time it takes to take actions or turns, which would not change, and so do the other games (where you can play matches in the time it takes us to play a game...yet they have no problem with the incremental time spent looking at discard piles).
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I think it will help the older and more competitive players. If I'm playing Justin Alstad or John Earley they would probably figure out what I have left in my deck by looking at my discard pile. I would rather keep them guessing a bit. I'm always for the underdog which is what I am when I play them.
Looking at your own discard pile would help all players especially the younger ones who might not remember what they have played.
Having helped train a number of RLK's to beat Sir Nobody I don't think they would have beat him if Tim would have been able to look at their discard pile.
Having come out in favor of the any pile previously (maybe the first person to do so linky-doo (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/(rule-change-proposal)-allow-players-to-look-at-the-cards-in-their-discard-pile/msg555751/#msg555751)) let me just respond quickly...
Being able to look at an opponent's deck to figure out what is left in a deck is a smaller part of why you would look at an opponent's discard pile if you are a younger player. The majority of time it will help them make other decisions. Decisions like "Is now a good time to play Murmuring?" or "What should I trash with Gabriel?" or ... The main "figuring out what's in a deck" is tied almost completely to "Has my opponent already played X?" At least this is how it seems to play out in other games.
All players tend to play way better when you limit the chances of them making "silly" plays. A lot of "silly" plays arise because a player misremembers game state. So the question is who--Sir Nobody or an RLK--is more likely to misremember what was already played? To this, I think being able to peruse opponent's has the possibility of boosting an RLK's chances more.
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I agree with everytribe. I think players should only look at there own d/c pile. I feel that will keep it a little more competitive and reduce time consumption.
Keeping things competitive does not jive with giving an advantage to players with better memory. If you actually want more competitive play, and play that doesn't just rely on memory and misplays due to a poor one but strategy and appropriately-timed responses, then you actually want to be able to view the discard piles.
Time consumption is also not an issue, and there isn't really any way to say otherwise; Redemption is the only game in this format that I can find that has hidden discard piles, and yet none of those other games have had any time-related issues whatsoever. We also have rules about the time it takes to take actions or turns, which would not change, and so do the other games (where you can play matches in the time it takes us to play a game...yet they have no problem with the incremental time spent looking at discard piles).
You can have all of that with being able to view your own d/c pile. I'm sorry that does jive with people with better or worse memory but I don't have a metric to gauge other peoples memory but regardless I don't want to waste game time because somebody wants to look through my d/c pile because they forgot about how many doms I already played.
Redemption isn't like any other game nor should it be otherwise I'd play those games and not redemption.
Time consumption may not be an issue for you but it is for me and to speak on the behalf of those other games and the people that play them is a little much to prove a point.
I think it will help the older and more competitive players. If I'm playing Justin Alstad or John Earley they would probably figure out what I have left in my deck by looking at my discard pile. I would rather keep them guessing a bit. I'm always for the underdog which is what I am when I play them.
Looking at your own discard pile would help all players especially the younger ones who might not remember what they have played.
Having helped train a number of RLK's to beat Sir Nobody I don't think they would have beat him if Tim would have been able to look at their discard pile.
Having come out in favor of the any pile previously (maybe the first person to do so linky-doo (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/(rule-change-proposal)-allow-players-to-look-at-the-cards-in-their-discard-pile/msg555751/#msg555751)) let me just respond quickly...
Being able to look at an opponent's deck to figure out what is left in a deck is a smaller part of why you would look at an opponent's discard pile if you are a younger player. The majority of time it will help them make other decisions. Decisions like "Is now a good time to play Murmuring?" or "What should I trash with Gabriel?" or ... The main "figuring out what's in a deck" is tied almost completely to "Has my opponent already played X?" At least this is how it seems to play out in other games.
All players tend to play way better when you limit the chances of them making "silly" plays. A lot of "silly" plays arise because a player misremembers game state. So the question is who--Sir Nobody or an RLK--is more likely to misremember what was already played? To this, I think being able to peruse opponent's has the possibility of boosting an RLK's chances more.
Well if you want to tailor the game for younger players there is a lot more you need to change about redemption than just being able to look at the d/c pile like have to remember the thousands of rules and rulings of this game just to be competitive and not make misplays.
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I'm in favor of both players being able to view both discard piles. As a Type 2 player, it really makes a difference to know 45 minutes into the game if my opponent has played 3 Sam's Edicts or 4. With 4 copies of many enhancements commonly played in T2 and a longer game, it's simply too much to keep track of without a pen and paper!
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I'm in favor of both players being able to view both discard piles. As a Type 2 player, it really makes a difference to know 45 minutes into the game if my opponent has played 3 Sam's Edicts or 4. With 4 copies of many enhancements commonly played in T2 and a longer game, it's simply too much to keep track of without a pen and paper!
As a T2 player myself, I can say that most late-game time wasting that I do is trying to wrack my brain on these very subjects ;)
To the response about the other games, I'm feeling a lot of hostility towards anything becoming "closer" to those other games; maybe I'm wrong, it's just the vibe coming off. We don't need to adopt the morals of a game to be able to look at it and see that certain aspects of it just...well, they work. Being able to view discard piles works; this has been proven over decades of games that are in the same category as Redemption. Redemption has "borrowed" plenty of things from other games over the years, intentional or not, because they frankly work. Being closed-off to even looking at successes won't help us, either.
So when we have a question: Does being able to look at discard piles cause too much time to be wasted? We can either look at hypotheticals or we can actually look at something comparable in the real world.
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Well if you want to tailor the game for younger players there is a lot more you need to change about redemption than just being able to look at the d/c pile like have to remember the thousands of rules and rulings of this game just to be competitive and not make misplays.
We are working towards that and little changes will work together to make a big difference when it is all said and done. Trust me when I say I have spent countless nights up to the wee hours of the morning on Skype calls with the other Elders and Playtesters trying to do what you and many others are wanting. That is why threads like this are created as well. We don't want to make decisions in a vacuum but we want your thoughts as well. Thanks for sharing.
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Well if you want to tailor the game for younger players there is a lot more you need to change about redemption than just being able to look at the d/c pile like have to remember the thousands of rules and rulings of this game just to be competitive and not make misplays.
We are working towards that and little changes will work together to make a big difference when it is all said and done. Trust me when I say I have spent countless nights up to the wee hours of the morning on Skype calls with the other Elders and Playtesters trying to do what you and many others are wanting. That is why threads like this are created as well. We don't want to make decisions in a vacuum but we want your thoughts as well. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Travis, I appreciate that.
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I'm still in favor of the any pile and would be incredibly disappointed if the actual change is just my own discard pile. Anything that boosts decision making and takes a load off of memory is an amazing thing. Also, the time argument can be demonstratively irrelevant. If it actually takes 45 minutes to play a normal T1 game between two semi experienced players playing competitive decks, then someone needs to work on speed of thought and play, not trying to be offensive, just trying to be reasonable.
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Contrary to popular belief, T1 2P is not the only category that people enjoy playing.
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Contrary to popular belief, T1 2P is not the only category that people enjoy playing.
People would timeout with or without this rule. Nature of the category.
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My blahbbity-blah deleted--mjb
Well if you want to tailor the game for younger players there is a lot more you need to change about redemption than just being able to look at the d/c pile...
Just to be clear, I was writing in response to everytribe's claim that not allowing players to look at their opponents' discard piles benefited younger players.
...like have to remember the thousands of rules and rulings of this game just to be competitive and not make misplays.
I think pretty much everyone agrees with the sentiment (if not the severity) of this. The fact that there are multiple avenues of improvement open should not, however, prevent folks form making gains where they can get them. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Contrary to popular belief, T1 2P is not the only a category that people enjoy playing.
FTFY. ;)
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I get it. I was just stating my welcomed feedback and how I feel about this rule. If people don't agree that fine. I'm not upset about it. I just don't like it when people have to invalidate or disregard my opinion or how I feel because they don't agree. Either way I'm up for whatever people decide to change to make the game better and more accessible.