Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master KChief on April 28, 2011, 10:36:42 PM
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would the fbtn lost soul prevent the first enhancement being played on an evil character from becoming cannot be prevented?
Luke 19_10 (Di)
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Beginning in the phase after this card is put in play, negate all special abilities on Lost Soul cards (except this one). • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 19:10 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
cant find the cbp lost soul in the REG. :P
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Iirc it depends on which one was active first.
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The CBP LS says something like CBP good card. Since the FBTN LS is neutral it negates it, no questions asked.
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Except that abilities that grant cbn/p/i are themselves cbn/i/p
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Except that abilities that grant cbn/p/i are themselves cbn/i/p
We've discussed this on the elder side of the boards and came to an easy consensus. If you didn't (or don't) agree, why bring it up here/now?
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I thought I did. I'll have to go back and reread it.
Gabe, I went back and read the thread. I'll send you a PM
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so fbtn lost soul negates cbp lost soul then, regardless which was in play first?
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so fbtn lost soul negates cbp lost soul then, regardless which was in play first?
That's how you can expect it to be played at IA States this coming weekend. ;)
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nice, thanks. :)
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So...we're reversing the ruling on abilities that grant CBP/I/N themselves being CBP/I/N?
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So...we're reversing the ruling on abilities that grant CBP/I/N themselves being CBP/I/N?
No, in this case there is not a good card preventing it. CBP good =/= CBP good + neutral + evil
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So...we're reversing the ruling on abilities that grant CBP/I/N themselves being CBP/I/N?
No, in this case there is not a good card preventing it. CBP good =/= CBP good + neutral + evil
+1
The rule is usually stated as cards that grant CBN/CBP/CBI are CBN/CBP/CBI.
It would (In my mind) be more accurate to state "Card that grant CBN/CBP/CBI are themselves CBN/CBP/CBI by the same method they grant protection from"
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Um, so if I have the CBP LS out and you attack BTN, and the card I play is placed on a LS to Negate it...wut?
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I guess my question is why in the world would you do that..... :-\
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to make the redemption universe implode?
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The point is that the rule was implemented to prevent loops. If we modify it now, loops are now possible.
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Jeremiah 11_8 (RA)
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Unless a Covenant is in play, the first evil Enhancement you play each battle cannot be prevented by a good card. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Jeremiah 11:8 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
IT is this simple. Unless a covenant is in play (check first for this..in this case we are assuming it is not in play) the first enhancement cannot be prevented by a good card. So enhancements can be prevented by evil cards and neutral cards. the BTN LS is a neutral card so it negated the SA on the punisher LS.
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That adds nothing to the discussion. My question remains unanswered about what happens if an ability granting CBN is not itself CBN. I even provided a legitimate example of why it would matter.
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Not really considering that we've also established a rule that a card either has CBN/I/P when its played, or it doesn't, and that status doesn't change. - In your example the Enhancement was CBP when it was played, so it remains CBP even after the CBP grant ends, resulting in no loop.
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I still vehemently oppose the more complicated ruling that's being suggested now and ask what was wrong with the original ruling?
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I still vehemently oppose the more complicated ruling that's being suggested now and ask what was wrong with the original ruling?
This isn't new according to how most of the active elders understand it. It's the same ruling.
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Elders often seem to have a very different view of what is status quo than the bulk of players. I really wish changes like this would be more publicly announced rather than just agreed upon and then mentioned in passing when a thread like this comes up.
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Um, so if I have the CBP LS out and you attack BTN, and the card I play is placed on a LS to Negate it...wut?
OK Polaris, in this "Oh So Clear" example are you:
1. Suggesting that the BTN LS is already out in play negating the CBP LS when a person attacks with a BTN Hero?
2. Asking if the CBP LS even works when a BTN Hero attacks (which is what it was designed to work against for)
3. ??WUT???
Since you were so clear, I went on the assumption #1 which in this case I would rule that it is being negated...by the FBtN LS and not by the Captain of the Host that is attacking. There is no loop because the FBtN LS would negate the ability on the CBP LS and therefore the placed enhancement would simply be played for numbers against an attacking Captain.
But to be Honest this conversation seems to be somewhere else because I have NO idea why this is being argued, it seem so intuitive. Is there something I am missing?
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For years the rule has been that abilities which grant CBI/P/N abilities are CBN. Apparently the elders say that's changed but it was never announced or even brought up until now.
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For years the rule has been that abilities which grant CBI/P/N abilities are CBN. Apparently the elders say that's changed but it was never announced or even brought up until now.
Actually is what we're saying is not that it has changed, but that you have clearly misunderstood it. There's no change so there's nothing to announce.
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For years the rule has been that abilities which grant CBI/P/N abilities are CBN. Apparently the elders say that's changed but it was never announced or even brought up until now.
No, it only grants CBN status IF the conditions are met. After all, if a covenant is up, the CBP LS does not grant CBP status. The same would work if the FbtN LS was active at least one phase before the battle because it would negate the status of the CBP LS. This is how it has always been played.
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Clarifying a widely misunderstood rule is basically the same as an actual change since it changes how the majority plays those abilities/cards. I know I've never heard (until now) that there was the distinction "(but only from what they provide CBN/I/P status against)" after "abilities that provide CBN/I/P status are CBN/I/P themselves."
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Clarifying a widely misunderstood rule is basically the same as an actual change since it changes how the majority plays those abilities/cards.
I really didn't know that this was being widely misplayed.
After all, if a covenant is up, the CBP LS does not grant CBP status. The same would work if the FbtN LS was active at least one phase before the battle because it would negate the status of the CBP LS.
That's exactly right, and was why I thought that everyone was playing this the right way. It just seemed intuitive.
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Okay, maybe I'm just under a rock, but I had never heard this version of the rule until this thread. I always thought that an ability that granted CBI/P/N from anything was itself CBI/P/N (from everything). I've never had it ruled otherwise (though I can't think of any examples where it would have come up), I've never had any other players or hosts correct me, I've seen nothing in the REG to suggest otherwise. Where did I go wrong?
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IT just comes from a simple reading of the card and making sure it says what you think it says. Often I think a card says something and then when I re-read it, I find that it does not say what I think it says.
Some cards limit when a LS can be negated and when it cannot. For example.. "Cannot be negated if played on a Genesis Character" clearly limits when a card can be negated and when it cannot.
In the case of this LS it says:
Jeremiah 11_8 (RA)
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Unless a Covenant is in play, the first evil Enhancement you play each battle cannot be prevented by a good card. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Jeremiah 11:8 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
So if CAN be prevented by an evil card (such as playing an enhancement on KoT) or a neutral card, like a fortress, site or LS.
In this case, the FBtN LS would negate the ability on the CBP LS and render it just like a LS with no SA until the other soul is rescued, buried or negated.
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Hopefully there won't be too many more of these "not" rule changes (fare thee well, IaH) before the dust finally settles on a usable REG.
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+1 ;D