Author Topic: FBTN kicked out still FBTN? (Read 5800 times)

LordZardeck · « **on:** February 08, 2012, 04:14:37 PM »

I always thought if a card that was FBTN was kicked out of the fight, because of him negating the ability that brought him in, his ability left with him.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:18:13 PM »

No, that's not how it works with FBTN characters. If Armorbearer bands to Ira, Ira gets kicked out, but the FBTN status sticks.

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Ira (Ki)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate all special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Samuel 20:26 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)

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Armorbearer (Wa)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 6 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: May band to any Hero who fought in an earthly battle. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: I Samuel 14:7 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:21:48 PM »

In other words, the "negate all" ability would have to be negated (by a CBN/CBP card).

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:22:52 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 08, 2012, 04:21:48 PM

In other words, the "negate all" ability would have to be negated (by a CBN/CBP card).

LordZardeck's thought is that Ira would be indirectly negated when Armorbearer is negated.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:23:25 PM »

But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:24:55 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:23:25 PM

But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

So by that logic, The Angel Under the Oak's protection of Gideon shouldn't work, because when Gideon would enter battle, AUtO would not be in battle anymore.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:25:18 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:23:25 PM

But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

Once an ongoing ability enters battle, it stays unless it is negated. In this case, the hero was removed, but the ability was not negated.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:29:35 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 04:24:55 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:23:25 PM
But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

So by that logic, The Angel Under the Oak's protection of Gideon shouldn't work, because when Gideon would enter battle, AUtO would not be in battle anymore.

Actually I would argue yes. That ability SHOULDN'T work unless you are using AUtO as the hero to battle, protecting Gideon in your territory, or unless you have both AUtO and Gideon in battle. But I see what you are saying about ongoing abilities, even though I disagree that they should be so.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:59:34 PM »

Ongoing abilities last until the end of the phase in which they've been played, unless they are negated. That's the rule.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2012, 05:10:50 PM »

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But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

In the case of a FBTN character negating the ability that brought him into battle, the FBTN sticks to prevent loops. If Armorbearer bands to Ira, who negates Armorbearer, which indirectly negates himself, then he's not negating Armorbearer, and not indirectly negating himself, and so on.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2012, 05:15:06 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on February 08, 2012, 05:10:50 PM

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But that doesn't make any logical sense. He's kicked out of the battle, his effect shouldn't be in battle anymore.

In the case of a FBTN character negating the ability that brought him into battle, the FBTN sticks to prevent loops. If Armorbearer bands to Ira, who negates Armorbearer, which indirectly negates himself, then he's not negating Armorbearer, and not indirectly negating himself, and so on.

This is what I've always heard. If the banding is negated, it's like the band never happened, except in the case of banding in a FBTN character, where the battle stays FBTN to prevent loops.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2012, 08:51:25 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 08, 2012, 05:15:06 PM

This is what I've always heard. If the banding is negated, it's like the band never happened, except in the case of banding in a FBTN character, where the battle stays FBTN to prevent loops.

This is the way I've always heard it explained as well.

cookie monster · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2012, 02:28:22 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 08, 2012, 08:51:25 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 08, 2012, 05:15:06 PM
This is what I've always heard. If the banding is negated, it's like the band never happened, except in the case of banding in a FBTN character, where the battle stays FBTN to prevent loops.

This makes sense.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2012, 09:35:28 AM »

So the ruling is only about FBTN?

If a banding chain brings in a character that grants "protect heroes from discard CBN" and a FBTN character is brought in, does the protection remain even though the banded character is removed?

Or, more to the point, if a banding chain brings in a character that grants "protect heroes from discard" and a character "negates all banding", does the protection remain?

STAMP · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 11, 2012, 09:35:28 AM

So the ruling is only about FBTN?

If a banding chain brings in a character that grants "protect heroes from discard CBN" and a FBTN character is brought in, does the protection remain even though the banded character is removed?

Or, more to the point, if a banding chain brings in a character that grants "protect heroes from discard" and a character "negates all banding", does the protection remain?

The former is easy. CBN protection remains for any heroes still in battle.

The latter gets us back to the original issue that surrounded Protection of Angels and Twelve-Fingered Giant. I don't know what the flavor of the month on that ruling is.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:59:27 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 11, 2012, 11:00:32 AM

The latter gets us back to the original issue that surrounded Protection of Angels and Twelve-Fingered Giant. I don't know what the flavor of the month on that ruling is.

Well, I'm still uncomfortable with the Warrior's Spear on Spy ruling, but the fact is that we need to be consistent. If the ruling is that SAs that enter battle remain unless negated, then there should be no talk of "as if the band never happened."

STAMP · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:59:28 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 11, 2012, 12:59:27 PM

Quote from: STAMP on February 11, 2012, 11:00:32 AM
The latter gets us back to the original issue that surrounded Protection of Angels and Twelve-Fingered Giant. I don't know what the flavor of the month on that ruling is.

Well, I'm still uncomfortable with the Warrior's Spear on Spy ruling, but the fact is that we need to be consistent. If the ruling is that SAs that enter battle remain unless negated, then there should be no talk of "as if the band never happened."

It's definitely a fine line, but I can see a small difference. For a negated band, a card gets kicked out after having activated and thus is indirectly negated. For Spy+WS, a special ability kicks WS out of battle before it activates but was never negated either directly or indirectly.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2012, 04:14:23 PM »

Correct. Indirect negation is still a thing, it just can't negate anything CBI and FbtN characters can't indirectly negate themselves.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2012, 11:44:50 AM »

Negating banding will negate any abilities on characters brought in by the band, assuming those abilities are not CBI/CBN. So in your first example, YMT, the Heroes are still protected, but in your second example, they are not.

EDIT: Missed the second page of the thread on my smartphone...I agree with STAMP and Pol.

megamanlan · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2012, 01:57:09 PM »

This seems a bit more confusing to me... I understood it as if a Card leaves battle at all it's effect stays unless it's negated.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2012, 02:44:15 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on February 12, 2012, 01:57:09 PM

This seems a bit more confusing to me... I understood it as if a Card leaves battle at all it's effect stays unless it's negated.

I agree. That was the premise of the Warrior's Spear ruling. Where exactly did "indirect negation" come from anyway? Is it in the REG?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2012, 07:21:01 PM »

Neither Warrior's Spear nor the mechanism for having activated its ability is Negated.

In the case of Negating a band, you're undoing the character having been in battle in the first place unless they have a CBI ability.

cookie monster · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:09:23 AM »

wouldn't it just be easier if all ongoing abilities stay weather the character is still in battle or not

It is just confusing having so many ruling on different variations of the thing.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:38:46 PM »

It's all consistent. Negated=doesn't happen. Not negated=happens.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:35:46 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 22, 2012, 10:38:46 PM

It's all consistent. Negated=doesn't happen. Not negated=happens.

That was not the issue. "Indirect negation" is what is not defined, and would therefore be inconsistent. The band was negated, not the other abilities that entered battle. Since those abilities entered battle and were not negated, they should still be in effect, according to the Warrior's Spear ruling.

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Author Topic: FBTN kicked out still FBTN? (Read 5800 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy