Author Topic: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?  (Read 5772 times)

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 08:29:35 PM »
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Was it indirectly negated? Yes. Therefore, it was negated.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Chronic Apathy

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 09:43:30 PM »
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Can someone explain to me what the Warrior's Spear ruling is?

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2012, 01:12:50 AM »
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If you have Warrior's Spear on Spy and use his withdraw ability upon attacking, WS still activates.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline cookie monster

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2012, 09:33:40 AM »
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I am somewhat confused about indirect negating, can someone please explain indirect negating to me ???
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Offline Arrthoa

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2012, 10:35:54 AM »
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I know this is off topic but why didn't they make Armorbearer Warrior Class?

Offline Red Wing

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2012, 10:36:52 AM »
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I know this is off topic but why didn't they make Armorbearer Warrior Class?
He was printed in Warriors before Warrior Class was invented.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2012, 10:51:07 AM »
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Yes, I am aware of that but they also reprinted him in Kings the set that introduces warrior class.
Searching "Armorbearer" in the REG only comes up with the Wa version, and I couldn't find him in the Kings expansion. Are you sure he was reprinted in Kings?
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2012, 10:54:53 AM »
+1
I'm about 95% sure that Armorbearer was never reprinted.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2012, 12:03:25 PM »
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I'm about 95% sure that Armorbearer was never reprinted.

I'm 100% sure. There is no Kings Armorbearer.
Press 1 for more options.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2012, 10:08:03 AM »
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I'm about 95% sure that Armorbearer was never reprinted.

I'm 100% sure. There is no Kings Armorbearer.

Well I'M 105% sure! bad at math. Beat that Alstad!

« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 06:00:52 PM by Professoralstad »

browarod

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2012, 10:09:46 AM »
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I'm about 95% sure that Armorbearer was never reprinted.

I'm 100% sure. There is no Kings Armorbearer.

Well I'M 105% sure! Beat that Alstad!
I'm 9001% sure.

Offline christiangamer25

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2012, 04:17:25 PM »
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i'm 1337 percent sure thread won ty
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 06:02:41 PM »
+4
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2012, 10:15:32 AM »
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2012, 10:46:27 AM »
+1
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 01:14:12 PM »
+2
Hey,

I am somewhat confused about indirect negating, can someone please explain indirect negating to me ???

If an ability activates as part of another ability and if the other ability is negated the first ability is indirectly negated.  Negating the other ability means undoing everything that it did, one of the things it did was activate the first ability, so undoing it means undoing the first ability.

For example, character A has an ability to band and bands to character B.  Character A's ability caused Character B to enter battle.  Character B entering battle causes character B's ability to take effect.  So character A's ability indirectly caused character B's ability to activate.  Negating character A's ability undoes everything it caused.  It caused character B to enter battle, so character B is moved out of battle.  It indirectly caused character B's ability to take effect, so it undoes (i.e. indirectly negates) character B's ability.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 05:42:39 AM »
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It seems so simple, yet so complicated all at the same time ???
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Offline stefferweffer

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 08:18:19 AM »
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Hey,

I am somewhat confused about indirect negating, can someone please explain indirect negating to me ???

If an ability activates as part of another ability and if the other ability is negated the first ability is indirectly negated.  Negating the other ability means undoing everything that it did, one of the things it did was activate the first ability, so undoing it means undoing the first ability.

For example, character A has an ability to band and bands to character B.  Character A's ability caused Character B to enter battle.  Character B entering battle causes character B's ability to take effect.  So character A's ability indirectly caused character B's ability to activate.  Negating character A's ability undoes everything it caused.  It caused character B to enter battle, so character B is moved out of battle.  It indirectly caused character B's ability to take effect, so it undoes (i.e. indirectly negates) character B's ability.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
This makes sense to me, but it does not explain why if Character A bands to Character B, who happens to be a FBTN character and thus negates the band of Character A, that the remainder of the battle is FBTN.  Why didn't negating the band "indirectly" negate the FBTN status of the battle too?

Warrior_Monk

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »
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Because that would result in a loop...

Offline stefferweffer

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 08:39:34 AM »
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Because that would result in a loop...
Thanks.  I forgot about the "unless it will create an endless loop" rule.  Is this in the REG?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:42:27 AM by stefferweffer »

Offline SirNobody

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »
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Hey,

This makes sense to me, but it does not explain why if Character A bands to Character B, who happens to be a FBTN character and thus negates the band of Character A, that the remainder of the battle is FBTN.  Why didn't negating the band "indirectly" negate the FBTN status of the battle too?

It's been ruled since 2000 that FBTN cannot indirectly negate itself.  The ruling has always been that way to prevent infinite loop problems.  It is possible that that rule is currently missing from the REG.

Thinking about it now, there my actually be a more general rule that an ability can never directly or indirectly negate itself.  Can anyone think of an instance where a card negates itself?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly




browarod

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 01:28:09 PM »
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Sinning Hand would be the first thing I think of, but that one specifically says the opponent can do something to negate it, so idk if that counts.

It would make FBTN wording even more streamlined if there was a game rule that cards can't negate themselves (since then you wouldn't need the "(except this ability)" clarification).

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 01:38:20 PM »
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If cards couldn't negate themselves, then Sinning Hand and Trembling Demon would be inherently CBN. You'd also have weird situations like someone playing Reach, the opponent drawing a Negate off their Gifts, then being unable to Negate Reach because it would indirectly negate itself.

We've had the "no loops" rule for years, and I don't think it needs to be changed.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline cookie monster

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2012, 02:58:48 AM »
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So the indirect negating always happens unless the ability that is being indirectly negated cannot be negated, or if the negating creates an endless loop. this makes so much sense now ;D
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: FBTN kicked out still FBTN?
« Reply #49 on: February 29, 2012, 07:06:41 PM »
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I don't get it.


 ;)
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