Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on September 10, 2010, 12:43:47 AM
-
Say opponent captures and then rescues my hero (with SOG or NJ). I then play Falling Away, bringing it back to my territory as a lost soul. What happens if I either have Covenant of Palestine active at that time, or activate it later? Does my hero who is a lost soul right now instantly come back to my territory as a hero?
Thanks.
-
I believe that part of those artifacts only happens when activated.
-
So I could de-activate Cov of Palestine, and immediately reactivate it to get my hero back? Can you even do this with artifacts? Thanks again.
-
If it's during your prep phase and you chose to leave it active, the special ability refreshes and you can get your Hero back.
-
I agree with Polarius. The "prevent" part of Cov. of Pal. is an ongoing ability, but "return to territory" is an instant ability that only can be activated one time.
As an aside, here is an interesting quote from the REG under Miscellaneous Ongoing Abilities:
Characters placed in a Land of Redemption reset to face value.
What in the world is that supposed to mean? It makes it sound like a captured hero who is rescued, then Falling Away'd, is now back to being a hero. :o
-
I agree with Polarius. The "prevent" part of Cov. of Pal. is an ongoing ability, but "return to territory" is an instant ability that only can be activated one time.
As an aside, here is an interesting quote from the REG under Miscellaneous Ongoing Abilities:
Characters placed in a Land of Redemption reset to face value.
What in the world is that supposed to mean? It makes it sound like a captured hero who is rescued, then Falling Away'd, is now back to being a hero. :o
It seems to me more likely to mean that gained abilities, increases or decreases to numbers, etc. are reset.
-
LoR, not LoB. If Paul is Captured and then Rescued, he becomes a Rescued Saul.
-
LoR, not LoB. If Paul is Captured and then Rescued, he becomes a Rescued Saul.
I apparently can't read. Removed my question that didn't make sense.
That doesn't completely resolve the issue, though. He was a converted hero, then a captured hero, then a Redeemed Saul, but what is he when he comes back?
-
If Falling Away is played on a Rescued Saul, he is Saul when he comes back. There is no such thing as a Rescued Paul.
-
If Falling Away is played on a Rescued Saul, he is Saul when he comes back. There is no such thing as a Rescued Paul.
Obviously he's Saul, I wasn't inquiring WHO he was. I was asking WHAT he was. Focus on the adjectives, not the nouns, in my example.
-
Hur durr, he's a Captured Evil Character.
-
Hur durr, he's a Captured Evil Character.
Why? He was captured as a hero, he was reset in LoR, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to be treated as such.
-
Why? He was captured as a hero, he was reset in LoR, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to be treated as such.
Answering your own question FTW. (Paul IS Saul at face value).
-
Why? He was captured as a hero, he was reset in LoR, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to be treated as such.
Answering your own question FTW. (Paul IS Saul at face value).
Yet again, I know he's "Saul". Can we please read what my questions are rather than giving the same non-answers anymore? >_<
EDIT: Better yet, let me just spell it out to prevent further confusion. Why is Saul a "captured evil character"? He was captured as a hero, not an EC. Sure he was reset to an EC in LoR, but wouldn't that also reset the "captured" tag (the REG quote says face value, and Saul is not captured at face value)?
-
Read Falling Away.
-
wouldn't covenant of palestine only return characters during your preparation phase?
-
Lost Souls represent people that need to be rescued from the power of sin and death. As these cards are drawn, they are placed in the Land of Bondage. Rescue of a Lost Soul takes place in the Field of Battle during a rescue attempt. When a Lost Soul is rescued, it is no longer called a Lost Soul. It becomes a Redeemed Soul
From REG
If cards reset in LoR after they become Redeemed Souls, then characters in your LoR don't add to your score.
He would be a lost soul at that point, not a captured anything. Falling away just treats cards as lost souls, they lose the captured identifier when they reset I'm assuming.
-
He would be a lost soul at that point, not a captured anything. Falling away just treats cards as lost souls, they lose the captured identifier when they reset I'm assuming.
Finally! Someone who got what I was going for :P.
Read Falling Away.
Lost Soul =/= captured evil character
-
Uh-oh, I just discovered a problem. "Place in your Land of Bondage" is a capture ability when it targets Heroes. As of right now, Falling Away is an Evil Capture Card =/
But that is the answer to your silliness; old cards with "place in your Land of Bondage" are capture cards, so Saul would be re-captured.
-
So then would Z's Temple protect your Z's Temple priests in LoR from FA?
-
No, because LoR is out of play.
-
No, because LoR is out of play.
Crap, you're right. /sad
-
Ugh so many rules.
-
Lost Souls represent people that need to be rescued from the power of sin and death. As these cards are drawn, they are placed in the Land of Bondage. Rescue of a Lost Soul takes place in the Field of Battle during a rescue attempt. When a Lost Soul is rescued, it is no longer called a Lost Soul. It becomes a Redeemed Soul
From REG
If cards reset in LoR after they become Redeemed Souls, then characters in your LoR don't add to your score.
He would be a lost soul at that point, not a captured anything. Falling away just treats cards as lost souls, they lose the captured identifier when they reset I'm assuming.
So now I'm confused with my original question then, because I am getting two different answers. It sounds like Smokey is saying that a hero who becomes a lost soul, then is redeemed, and then falls away to a lost soul again, is no longer a captured hero? So that Covenant of Palestine would never bring said "lost soul" back to hero status? I'm just asking this because it could have a big impact on which lost soul I play Falling Away on. If I knew there was a way for me to get my hero back that's the lost soul I would pick. Thanks again everyone for helping to resolve this for me.
-
FA is worded like a capture. This is highly problematic and likely to change as soon as the PTB notice it.
-
noticed. lol
Makes for interesting interactions, but can you point to the highly problematic part?
If there are such parts, then I foresee some sort of "play as" to translate the old wording into today's terminology (in a way that does not involve capture. Otherwise, do you think we could run with it as "Capture a redeemed soul in a land of redemption."?
-
As Polarius pointed out, the LoR is not in play, so I can't think of any cards that would really be affected by FA being a capture, other than the weird situation it creates if you FA an actual Lost Soul (does it become a captured Lost Soul or "character"? if so, does that even mean anything?).
so would covenant of palestine prevent falling away on rescued heros?
I would assume not since Cov of Palestine would default to only protecting heroes in play and LoR is not in play.
-
I think the biggest hangup is that capture abiities are supposed to target characters, and Redeemed Souls are not really characters. That is probably a good enough reason to call this something other than capture. But it is similar to capture, to be sure.
-
So when they return to territory via Falling Away, are they still a captured hero, or are they just a generic lost soul?
-
Hey,
Uh-oh, I just discovered a problem. "Place in your Land of Bondage" is a capture ability when it targets Heroes. As of right now, Falling Away is an Evil Capture Card =/
Try reading Falling Away again. It says "Return card to your land of bondage" NOT "Place in your Land of Bondage." There is no capture wording in Falling Away's ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
What is the redemption definition for 'return'? It seems like to me that to be returned you must have been there in the first place, so if a soul hasn't already been in your LOB....
-
Agreed. It's wording that doesn't really work, but is most similar to a capture ability (place being replaced with return).
-
We seem to have steered away from the real concern here. Is the REG quote I gave simply obsolete and disregarded? Otherwise, there is a problem with a captured Paul being rescued, then Falling Away'd, since he would return to territory as a captured Saul.
Are we simply to assume that cards do not reset in the Land of Redemption?
-
Hey,
What is the redemption definition for 'return'?
The new REG defines it as follows: "A return ability puts a card in a location and/or state that the card (usually) had been in at some earlier point in the game."
It seems like to me that to be returned you must have been there in the first place, so if a soul hasn't already been in your LOB....
The new REG also says the following regarding return: "A card can be returned to a location even if it has never been in that location before. Return abilities generally send cards to a place they came from, but they do not have to."
Pushed Back can return a hero that entered battle from hand to it's owner's territory. Falling Away can return a lost soul to a land of bondage it's never been in before.
In redemption we use the "regress" definition of "return" rather than the "revert" definition. There is a normal progression a card goes through in the course of a game of Redemption. Return is an ability that moves a card backwards in that progression.
We seem to have steered away from the real concern here. Is the REG quote I gave simply obsolete and disregarded?
I would say yes, it is obsolete and inaccurate.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly