Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Kevinthedude on April 25, 2018, 04:16:52 PM

That's what I used to think as well but I'm almost certain I've had it ruled otherwise. It would be nice to have a definitive ruling though.

Let's use an example with new FoM cards   

Phinehas bands to Caleb who bands to Benaiah.  They are blocked by 12FG.  Caleb is kicked out because Phinehas isn't CBN.  However, everything Caleb did, including underdecking a Giant, taking/playing a City, and banding to Benaiah sticks, because Caleb is CBI.  And since Benaiah is still in battle and nothing is trying to negate him, he's not negated.

I guess if you'd apply the same logic that negating draw abilities do, you would negate Benaiah.  Which is silly.  And is also why Benaiah sticks and his ability is ruled to be active.

Thank you for providing a fantastic example that runs counter to the "negate draw" ruling!

The counter argument is that if Phinehas' ability had never activated, Benaiah would never have made it to battle and thus even though he doesn't get kicked because Caleb is CBN, do as much as you can combined with the catch all that is cascade negate would result in Benaiah being negated.

The counter argument is that if Phinehas' ability had never activated, Benaiah would never have made it to battle and thus even though he doesn't get kicked because Caleb is CBN, do as much as you can combined with the catch all that is cascade negate would result in Benaiah being negated.

See, it's this verbiage that really gets under my skin - defining Negate as "it never happened".  Well, that's really not accurate.  It really means "It never happened, unless it's CBI or CBN". 

Actually, it's more like "Undo something that did happen, except for CBI and CBN things".

Because the fact of the matter is, Phinehas' ability DID activate.  Otherwise, how did Caleb and Benaiah ever get into battle?

And since Phinehas DID happen, and since Caleb DID activate, and since Caleb IS CBI, and Caleb DID band to Benaiah, how can you argue that Benaiah stays in battle but is negated?  12FG doesn't even negate heroes!  He only negates band abilities!

"Doing all that you can" means "Negate all band abilities".  It doesn't mean "Negate all band abilities, as well as all characters banded into battle".  Those are two separate things.  One is one ability, the other is two. 

*****

I've got to ask...  Seriously...  If a rule didn't exist already that said "Negate cards drawn by draw abilities when you negate the draw ability", or "Negate any heroes banded into battle when you negate band abilities", would anyone honestly be arguing that they should be negated?  Which is an additional ability that isn't found in "Negate draw abilities" or "Negate band abilities"?  And makes things more complicated and less intuitive?

Quote from: jmhartz on April 25, 2018, 05:11:52 PM

I've got to ask...  Seriously...  If a rule didn't exist already that said "Negate cards drawn by draw abilities when you negate the draw ability", or "Negate any heroes banded into battle when you negate band abilities", would anyone honestly be arguing that they should be negated?  Which is an additional ability that isn't found in "Negate draw abilities" or "Negate band abilities"?  And makes things more complicated and less intuitive?

Yes because this

Quote

If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

is incredibly generic and can be extrapolated very far. The old wording on it was even worse.

Ok, let's use that rule instead.

If THAT rule didn't exist, would you honestly be arguing that Benaiah should be negated completely (yet remain in battle) when 12FG blocks Phinehas/Caleb/Benaiah?  Like, is that the logical conclusion you would arrive at?

I think I'm having deja vu...

Quote from: Kevinthedude on April 25, 2018, 05:17:45 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on April 25, 2018, 05:11:52 PM

I've got to ask...  Seriously...  If a rule didn't exist already that said "Negate cards drawn by draw abilities when you negate the draw ability", or "Negate any heroes banded into battle when you negate band abilities", would anyone honestly be arguing that they should be negated?  Which is an additional ability that isn't found in "Negate draw abilities" or "Negate band abilities"?  And makes things more complicated and less intuitive?

Yes because this

Quote

If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

is incredibly generic and can be extrapolated very far. The old wording on it was even worse.

Ok, let's use that rule instead.

If THAT rule didn't exist, would you honestly be arguing that Benaiah should be negated completely (yet remain in battle) when 12FG blocks Phinehas/Caleb/Benaiah?  Like, is that the logical conclusion you would arrive at?

If cascade negate didn’t exist would I want to put it in the game? Absolutely not. I hate cascade negate and would be singing from the rooftops if it weren’t in the game.