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"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Show me where you are getting this. I can find no rule that says this anywhere.

I agree with you that it's being treated like that, I'm merely pointing out that the REG doesn't currently support ruling it as such.

Nazzy states that it stops searches. Angel isn't searching, he's exchanging. These are two different terms, thus they must be two different abilities. If that's the case then Nazzy can't stop exchanges, just searches.

Sorry, your argument has a fallacy in that Exchange has been defined to have a Search ability as part of it.  It's specifically in there so...sorry, you'll have to come up with something else.

You can refer back to any of the Herod's Dungeon rulings for this.  The card says "Blocking", and that's where it has been differentiated in the past.  Sorry that you don't agree with it, but it meshes with the logic, the grammar, and (most importantly) previous rulings.  Unless the Elders change their minds, that's the way it is 

Also on a side note, The Throne of David does kick in in response to an Uzzah block.  The trigger goes off when Uzzah enters battle, he discards himself, The Throne of David takes effect, and since there is no Evil Character in battle, there obviously isn't an evil character with a weapon, so the draw and play happens.

This part, while intuitive, goes against what I had been told as far as an Uzzah (or other) chump-block activating TToD.  I had always had it ruled to me that TToD cannot activate because at the time of its activation there is no blocking EC.

I understand the reasoning, but is this something that Elders all agree on?  Because I'm pretty sure I've seen others say the opposite (of course searching the forums isn't working still...great).

The problem I have with that and this quote

The Throne of David is triggered when Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, before Seven Wicked Spirits takes effect.

  is that before it was said that a characters ability happened simultaneously as a part of them entering battle. 

In other words a character hasn't entered battle yet if they're special ability hasn't activated.  There is no gap between them entering battle and their special ability activating.  They're not even separate activities; they are one and the same action. 

Now I don't know if this is still the definition but I know it had been debated and defined that way previously.  I can't remember what for but I think it was with things like Hidden Treasures, Rescuer's Choice, and Every Man's Sword (before current errata). 

That is old and maybe no longer valid but I prefer continuity so I dislike when rulings just fade away and new ones spring up like the previous was never there.

Abijah, son of Samuel (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time opponent plays an Enhancement in battle, you may draw a card. •
 

If I play Reach and another card, then will they draw 1, 2, or 0?  By the time Abijah reactivates, no enhancement is being played so I don't see why they would draw any.  I think this is the same as TToD. 

The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented.  ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.) 

I'm still not sure if what this means if Solomon brings TToD out after the initial blocker is presented. 

What Tim said goes against years of ruling it the other way. It also doesn't square with the fact that characters aren't considered to be in battle, or at least to be blocking/have blocked, until their SA's have completed.

Hey,

Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?

The Throne of David is a trigger.  The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger.  Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions.  Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities.  Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change).  "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

before it was said that a characters ability happened simultaneously as a part of them entering battle. 

In other words a character hasn't entered battle yet if they're special ability hasn't activated.  There is no gap between them entering battle and their special ability activating.  They're not even separate activities; they are one and the same action.

I'm not exactly sure how or why we set it up this way, but in Redemption multiple things can happen "at the same time" and yet still happen in sequence.  Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, Seven Wicked Spirits begins to activate it's ability, and The Throne of David is Triggered all happen at the same time, but they happen in that order. (Note that Seven Wicked Spirits "begins to activate" before The Throne of David is triggered, but The Throne of David is triggered before you actually "do" any part of Seven Wicked Spirits ability.)

The idea that a character entering battle and it's ability taking effect being the same action and the first not being true until the second happened was popular for a while, and was official for a few days, but it was shot down rather quickly because it creates logical paradoxes.

Quote

Abijah, son of Samuel (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time opponent plays an Enhancement in battle, you may draw a card. •
 

If I play Reach and another card, then will they draw 1, 2, or 0?  By the time Abijah reactivates, no enhancement is being played so I don't see why they would draw any.

When Reach is played, before any of it actually happens, Abijah is triggered to draw a card.  That draw doesn't happen until after Reach completes, but it is triggered before Reach happens.  Reach then interrupts Abijah, making Abijah not active, and while it is inactive reach allows another card to be played.  The other card is played while Abijah is not active, so it does not trigger Abijah again.  Reach then completes, Abijah kicks back in, now Reach is done and Abijah is still triggered and waiting to draw, so he does.  He draws 1.

Quote

The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented.  ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.) 

I'm still not sure if what this means if Solomon brings TToD out after the initial blocker is presented.

It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented.  If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Not sure how I feel about the order-of-operations as described there, but I don't think they are actually defined anywhere in the game rules.  Is this a unified Elder ruling, or will we have to wait to hear back?

It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented.  If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

I did read through all of your posts, and may have missed it, but I don't remember the initial blocker being the only one to trigger.  If I play Lurking mid-battle, then by all current rulings that EC "blocks", as that is the act of adding an EC to battle.  Similar cards with similar wording have had this ruling, and it should not be that this card in particular does not follow the same rules.  There is nothing on the card to say that TToD may only activate once, and as an instant trigger, it should trigger with each EC to enter battle (no matter when).

Hey,

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 09, 2012, 01:42:39 PM

What Tim said goes against years of ruling it the other way.

Which part of what I said do you believe goes against current rulings?

The part that TToD triggers off of a Uzzah that discarded itself with a SA goes against the status quo ruling I have seen since I've been around.  I believe that is what he is referencing.

EDIT: Stupid quote killed the middle of my post...

The Throne of David is a trigger.  The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger.  Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions.  Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities.  Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change).  "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

This is REALLY complicated.  So we have "conditions" (ie. Iron Pan), "triggers" (ie. Unknown Nation), and "triggers with static conditions attached" (ie. Throne of David).  I think there's got to be a simpler way to break all this down.

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM

The Throne of David is a trigger.  The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger.  Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions.  Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities.  Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change).  "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

This is REALLY complicated.  So we have "conditions" (ie. Iron Pan), "triggers" (ie. Unknown Nation), and "triggers with static conditions attached" (ie. Throne of David).  I think there's got to be a simpler way to break all this down.

I agree this needs to be simplified in some way.  I mean I followed it, but not everyone would, and it'll be hard to explain to a lot of the younger kids who play the game.

Well something like this can fly way under the radar because nobody but some dumb stubborn player would use it and then make people ask about this fortress (2nd time by the way) but hey if he sticks to it more power to him