Author Topic: Enoch (cow) (Read 1828 times)

Xonathan · « **on:** November 05, 2016, 03:48:24 PM »

If Son of God (I/J) negates Enoch (CoW) doesn't He negate Enoch's ability and is no longer a targetable lost soul?

Watchman · « **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2016, 03:50:54 PM »

I believe that since he's a character and not a lost soul the negate doesn't work on him. His rescue is only treated as if he was a lost soul but he's not actually a lost soul.

Xonathan · « **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2016, 03:51:40 PM »

That's what i'm hoping. Just want to make sure

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2016, 06:40:59 PM »

But if Enoch allows SoG to target him as a Lost Soul, then SoG should be able to negate that target.

Praeceps · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2016, 07:55:25 PM »

Enoch's ability doesn't treat him like a LS, it lets Good Doms target him as a LS. Thus the I/J would negate him.

Watchman · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2016, 08:33:20 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on November 05, 2016, 07:55:25 PM

Enoch's ability doesn't treat him like a LS, it lets Good Doms target him as a LS. Thus the I/J would negate him.

Are you saying then that I/J would not be able to rescue him if I/J negates him?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2016, 08:46:09 PM »

If he can be rescued why wouldn't he also be negated? There is nothing on SoG that gives either half of its ability separate criteria so there shouldn't be any case where only the rescue half can target something and the negate half couldn't (Although something like CBN would make the negate portion practically do nothing). I assume that Enoch works as intended because by the time he is negated, SoG has already targeted him and he can't be "untargeted". I have nothing to back this up with, it's just pure speculation on my part.

Praeceps · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2016, 12:37:20 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 05, 2016, 08:33:20 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on November 05, 2016, 07:55:25 PM
Enoch's ability doesn't treat him like a LS, it lets Good Doms target him as a LS. Thus the I/J would negate him.

Are you saying then that I/J would not be able to rescue him if I/J negates him?

I suspect that since SoG has already targeted him when the negate kicks in, he doesn't get untargeted by just rescued. If this is correct, then the negate targets Enoch, negates Enoch and does functionally nothing because at that point he has also already been rescued to the LoR.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2016, 06:42:37 AM »

The negate happens before the rescue, otherwise SoG could not rescue the */4 Lost Soul. I don't see why this is different.

Watchman · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2016, 08:46:29 AM »

It's hard for me to believe that when the elders created Enoch that they didn't think of the I/J negation and have the I/J SoG not be able to rescue him. This is why I don't believe the negation would target Enoch. He is a character that has a special ability that allows him to be rescued as if he were a lost soul, but he's not an actual lost soul. The wording is just clarifying that he can be rescued like how a LS can be rescued which means he would count as a redeemed soul once rescued, which goes along with the intent of the biblical narrative of the story of Enoch anyways. It's the fact that he can be rescued/redeemed that works to the controller's benefit. Now if his ability was negated by Thorns and Thistles, KoT, or whatever, then no SoG or NJ would be able to rescue him.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2016, 08:54:54 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 06, 2016, 08:46:29 AM

It's hard for me to believe that when the elders created Enoch that they didn't think of the I/J negation and have the I/J SoG not be able to rescue him.

This is not a valid justification, as Split Altar would prove.

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 06, 2016, 08:46:29 AM

He is a character that has a special ability that allows him to be rescued as if he were a lost soul, but he's not an actual lost soul.

His ability says "target," not "rescue." If he can be targeted for rescue, then he can be targeted for negate.

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 06, 2016, 08:46:29 AM

The wording is just clarifying that he can be rescued like how a LS can be rescued which means he would count as a redeemed soul once rescued, which goes along with the intent of the biblical narrative of the story of Enoch anyways.

"Clarifying text" is supposed to be a thing of the past.

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2016, 10:31:26 AM »

I didn't say that they didn't make a mistake; I said that it's hard for me to believe that they did. It is entirely plausible that they could have made a mistake, but not likely.

The purpose of the target is for him to be rescued to count towards a redeemed soul. That's the intent and purpose of his ability. I use the term "rescue" as a common way of saying that he can be targeted for redemption. He's also being treated as a LS which implies a rescue.

The fact is the wording on the ability says "Your good dominants can target him..." The only good dominants that can target a lost soul in an opponent's LoB are SoG, Negating SoG, and NJ. Either the creators didn't think about the negation aspect of SoG, which is unlikely, or they did but didn't think it would be an issue for the I/J SoG to target him for rescue. If they did think it was a problem then they probably would have made Enoch's ability CBI or CBN or used some other wording to cover this issue. Perhaps he's considered a LS in a LoB with no special ability or like a captured character; hence the I/J negation element is irrelevant.

One way or the other it comes down to the elders/creators chiming in on this thread to give clarity to this topic. It is of my opinion though that the I/J SoG can still target him for rescue and actually rescue him so long as his ability is not being negated by a card in a territory or in battle.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2016, 02:02:06 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 06, 2016, 10:31:26 AM

The purpose of the target is for him to be rescued to count towards a redeemed soul. That's the intent and purpose of his ability.

I understand the "intent" of Enoch, I'm just suggesting that it does not do what it was intended when the I/J SoG is used. It still works fine with the original SoG (See the irony there?) and with NJ (paired with either SoG).

Quote from: Watchman492 on November 06, 2016, 10:31:26 AM

One way or the other it comes down to the elders/creators chiming in on this thread to give clarity to this topic.

I agree. They either have not seen this thread yet, or they are discussing it behind closed doors.

Watchman · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2016, 04:13:02 PM »

Ha yeah. They could have had that "oh boy..." moment.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2016, 12:25:41 AM »

The way I see it, the target is only set once. When SoG is played, the pending abilities are to negate Enoch, then rescue Enoch. The first kicks in, Enoch is negated (meaning that if Redemption had a stack, a SoG further down the stack would not be able to target him), then the second kicks in and rescues Enoch.

This does create a problem with the current ruling regarding Hopper, but I believe that ruling is incorrect anyway. Mayhem delenda est.

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2016, 10:20:46 AM »

I'll weigh in on this with my opinion. Please don't take this as the elders stance though since I haven't conferred with any of my peers.

Targeting happens at the time a card is played. Son of God targets Enoch to "Negate and rescue a Lost Soul". Enoch is negated but the targeting has already happened so he can be rescued. The prior targeting isn't undone just because something was negated.

Ivek · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2016, 10:46:02 AM »

So is it in the other cases also the same: that if a card targets a card, and the targeted card stops being a valid target while the ability hasn't completely resolved, that in that case the ability completely resolves, as if the card were a valid target, because it was already targeted while it was a valid target?

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2016, 11:27:24 AM »

Quote from: Ivek on November 07, 2016, 10:46:02 AM

So is it in the other cases also the same: that if a card targets a card, and the targeted card stops being a valid target while the ability hasn't completely resolved, that in that case the ability completely resolves, as if the card were a valid target, because it was already targeted while it was a valid target?

I believe that's true in the general sense. The main exception that comes to mind is if the card targeting is interrupted (temporarily suspended) and then the targeted card(s) become invalid targets. An example of when this could happen is Protection of Angels (Priests).

The Guardian · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2016, 11:33:01 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 07, 2016, 10:20:46 AM

I'll weigh in on this with my opinion. Please don't take this as the elders stance though since I haven't conferred with any of my peers.

Targeting happens at the time a card is played. Son of God targets Enoch to "Negate and rescue a Lost Soul". Enoch is negated but the targeting has already happened so he can be rescued. The prior targeting isn't undone just because something was negated.

This is the thought I had as well.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2016, 08:43:00 PM »

Negates do not target cards, they target abilities. Which is why Shipwreck can discard Caesarea Phillipi, etc. So when Enoch says that Dominants can target him as a Lost Soul, the only part of Son of God's ability that can target Enoch is the same as the only part of the ability that can target any other Lost Soul: the Rescue ability. The negate portion can only target the ability of a Lost Soul, and since Enoch is not a Lost Soul, the negate portion cannot target his ability.

What probably is worth discussing is the general concept espoused by Gabe and The Guardian, which I am not particularly sure I agree with. If a card can become a valid target in the middle of the negate and the follow-up ability (as with Son of God vs. the N.T. Only LS, etc.) then I would say that it is equally possible for a card to cease being a valid target in between the negate and the follow-up ability. As a (somewhat) practical example, if there is a card that says negate and discard an Evil Character (can't think of one offhand, but I'm sure there is one with basically that wording) then if it tried to target Deafening Spirit (...You may treat this card as an Evil Character.) it would negate the convert ability, and then not be able to target DS with the discard. That is how I would understand it, but it may be worth discussing.

In either case, I think there is certainly justification for any version of SoG being able to rescue Enoch.

Praeceps · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2016, 06:15:27 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on November 07, 2016, 08:43:00 PM

Negates do not target cards, they target abilities. Which is why Shipwreck can discard Caesarea Phillipi, etc. So when Enoch says that Dominants can target him as a Lost Soul, the only part of Son of God's ability that can target Enoch is the same as the only part of the ability that can target any other Lost Soul: the Rescue ability. The negate portion can only target the ability of a Lost Soul, and since Enoch is not a Lost Soul, the negate portion cannot target his ability.

What probably is worth discussing is the general concept espoused by Gabe and The Guardian, which I am not particularly sure I agree with. If a card can become a valid target in the middle of the negate and the follow-up ability (as with Son of God vs. the N.T. Only LS, etc.) then I would say that it is equally possible for a card to cease being a valid target in between the negate and the follow-up ability. As a (somewhat) practical example, if there is a card that says negate and discard an Evil Character (can't think of one offhand, but I'm sure there is one with basically that wording) then if it tried to target Deafening Spirit (...You may treat this card as an Evil Character.) it would negate the convert ability, and then not be able to target DS with the discard. That is how I would understand it, but it may be worth discussing.

In either case, I think there is certainly justification for any version of SoG being able to rescue Enoch.

So you are saying in regards to I/J SoG Enoch (whose ability allows your good doms to target him as a LS) is targetable as a LS with a Hero's ability?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2016, 07:35:27 PM »

Basically, yes.

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Author Topic: Enoch (cow) (Read 1828 times)