Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Eragon5 on April 18, 2015, 09:54:02 AM
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If my opponent goes with Aaron (Di) and plays trumpet and sword 5/2 enhancement (SA is irrelevant to the question) using hidden treasures. If I blocked with Ishibibenob (discard a hero with strength 10/* or greater) will Aaron be discarded? Conversely if I play ignorance (decrease all heroes 4/4) will he be discarded?
Thanks in advance. :)
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Removed my thoughts because they were horribly wrong... :'(
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I could be just having a brainfart, but I don't believe either of those are true. Unless a card actually increases a character, the numbers on that character do not change, and the numbers on the enhancements should only be applied to determining winner by the numbers (for initiative and in Battle Resolution). Unless something is missing here, my answers would be "no" and "yes" in that order.
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I haven't done any research on this yet, but my initial gut reaction is that Redoubter is correct
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OK...well that seems very counter intuitive. When I play an enhancement it adjusts the characters numbers and/or gives another ability to be used during the battle. Numbers gained in set aside stick for the remainder of the game just like abilities gained in set aside do. Why wouldn't numbers gained in battle only last for the battle phase like their abilities do? In this instance the enhancement or special ability checks when it activates and if the stipulation is met then the ability works. At least that is how I would approach it from the perspective of every other CCG out there that I have ever played. But if Redoubter and RDT stand in opposition of that ruling then far be it for me to oppose that i suppose. :o
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I agree that it's not necessarily the logical conclusion, but I believe they are correct based on past rulings.
The specific ruling I recall involved Widow vs a 7/7 holding a 3/2 weapon. The 7/7 was still allowed to block because Widow only looks at the base characters numbers.
I did a quick search of the REG and rulebook but I don't find anything that really addresses this situation directly. It might be there if I had time to dig deeper. If it's not something should be added.
Widow may not be blocked by an Evil Character of */8 or higher.
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If it's not something should be added.
I can't find an explicit rule, and I don't think anyone has thus far either, but it is the way it's been ruled in the past, I think we are seeing agreement on that.
I'd also say that it is actually the logical conclusion as well. An enhancement in battle does not improve a single character's numbers on their card. If I have 2 Gold characters in battle with an enhancement, and one gets discarded, the enhancement stays and enhances the side of the battle. Similarly, we would not say in the original example that if the 5/2 enhancement were in battle with 2 Heroes, that each is considered increased by 5/2 for the purposes of targeting. That does not follow with how the numbers work, and otherwise enhancements would be multiplied by the number of playable Heroes in battle.
On the other hand, cards that would increase all Heroes of a specified type do so for each character that qualifies, because it adjusts the character itself.
Therefore, enhancements only enhance the numbers of a side of the battle, where increase abilities increase the character that is in battle. This is true of any type of enhancement, even those held like weapons, because they don't actually increase the character.
The ruling follows to its logical conclusion the way numbers on enhancements work in battle, though it should be explicitly stated somewhere, yes.
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I always understood enhancements to have their own toughness/strength. So Aaron would remain 6/4 but for the purpose of determining numbers for initiative you add 5/2 to Aaron for the rescuers combined strength and toughness. Aaron individually maintains a 6/4 status though.
For instance let's say somehow Aaron (6/4) and ahiamaz (4/2) end up in battle with trumptet and sword (5/2). The total strength and toughness of the rescuer/challenger is 15/8. The blocker play ignorance to decrease Aaron and ahiamaz 4/4. Both Aaron and ahiamaz are decreased to 0 toughness and they both would be discarded (excluding SI), then trumpet and sword has no where to stick causing it to fizzle out of battle. I cannot choose to play Trumpet and Sword on Aaron to bolster Aaron's numbers high enough to survive.
Same thing with toss King Hiram (10/4) enters with coat of mail (0/5). Blocker enters with foreign Spearman (6/6). Initiative goes to spearman for toss because the rescuers stats are 10/9. Spearman tosses 7 years of Pleanty (7/0) to decrease King Hiram by 7. Hiram has been decreased to 0 and coat of mail fizzles.
That has been my understanding of the scenario's anyways.
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Although I agree with the current ruling and do not want to see it changed, the latest rulebook actually contradicts this. We may agree that the numbers are just added to the battle, but the rulebook states that the numbers are added to the character. I can certainly see a new player ruling that Ishbibenob would discard Aaron in the OP. We would need to make a definitive announcement here on the Boards to keep the status quo.
4th Edition Rulebook (pages 16-17):
The numerical abilities (*/*) on the enhancement are always added to the abilities (*/*) of the character upon which the enhancement is played.
[Under the Example]:
You are making a rescue attempt with Angel at Bethesda, a silver brigade Hero with abilities of 3/1. You play Overwhelming Presence, a silver brigade enhancement that adds 3/3 to Angel at Bethesda's abilities for a total of 6/4.
[Top of page 17]:
The abilities (2/2) [of Fishers of Men] add to Peter's and the special ability targets your opponent's deck.
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Right they are added to the abilities of the character for battle resolution. So you literally add them to the character for resolution and initiative check, nothing says you modify the characters abilities.
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Right they are added to the abilities of the character for battle resolution. So you literally add them to the character for resolution and initiative check, nothing says you modify the characters abilities.
I know that, and you know that, but would you agree that a new player might think the character's abilities change, based on the wording of the rulebook?
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Right they are added to the abilities of the character for battle resolution. So you literally add them to the character for resolution and initiative check, nothing says you modify the characters abilities.
I know that, and you know that, but would you agree that a new player might think the character's abilities change, based on the wording of the rulebook?
There's a reason I asked this question. ;)
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YMT brings up a very good point, and as mentioned before, this is not explicit. There is certainly an opening to misinterpret based on what is given, and I agree with Gabe that we can address that going forward.
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Right they are added to the abilities of the character for battle resolution. So you literally add them to the character for resolution and initiative check, nothing says you modify the characters abilities.
I know that, and you know that, but would you agree that a new player might think the character's abilities change, based on the wording of the rulebook?
Yeah I guess , I mean when I first started playing I thought that enhancements perminately increased. But that's not really the rulebook's fault it's just a misinterpretation.
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I think we also might have an inconsistency with how we handle this and how we handle a situation where a character is decreased.
Example: My 6/6 Hero has a 2/2 Enhancement played on him in battle. You decrease his defense by 6. He's not discarded because we count the 2/2 towards his stats for keeping him alive.
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I think we also might have an inconsistency with how we handle this and how we handle a situation where a character is decreased.
Example: My 6/6 Hero has a 2/2 Enhancement played on him in battle. You decrease his defense by 6. He's not discarded because we count the 2/2 towards his stats for keeping him alive.
Yeah, that makes no sense. Why would the scenario with ignorance be different than this?
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I think we also might have an inconsistency with how we handle this and how we handle a situation where a character is decreased.
Example: My 6/6 Hero has a 2/2 Enhancement played on him in battle. You decrease his defense by 6. He's not discarded because we count the 2/2 towards his stats for keeping him alive.
I had always played that the hero does die.
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Well, as the new player in question who has been playing the game for 15+ years, the inconsistency is backed up by what other games do in this situation. And before anyone says that doesn't matter, in order to make a game appealing to those who do not play it, it might make sense to have rules like this translate across game lines. Perhaps we look at it from a theological perspective and say that the enhancements are God's blessing to the hero whom they are played on and give them strength and toughness to fight the current battle. :angel:
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I think we also might have an inconsistency with how we handle this and how we handle a situation where a character is decreased.
Example: My 6/6 Hero has a 2/2 Enhancement played on him in battle. You decrease his defense by 6. He's not discarded because we count the 2/2 towards his stats for keeping him alive.
I had always played that the hero does die.
Yeah, the Hero would be discarded. It's by the same extension of the rules that the enhancement does not actually increase each individual character's numbers, but the numbers on that side. We would not say that each Hero in battle of that brigade has increased toughness, but if one were discarded that enhancement would still be there. It enhances the side. Only an increase ability increases a character.
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New players would not understand this line of ruling. I decrease you -6/-6. Im an 8/8. No, your 2/2 enhancement doesnt count, your dead. What?
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New players would not understand this line of ruling. I decrease you -6/-6. Im an 8/8. No, your 2/2 enhancement doesnt count, your dead. What?
It's not really that hard to explain, at least not in my experience (although I admit I don't tend to explain it to complete novices). I just explain that the character numbers are separate from enhancement ones (I also tend to explain that it would be different if a Special Abilities said: Character gains X/X). But I do understand the possible confusion.
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So then what are we doing with "Coming of the Spirit"? Will the disciple Its placed on retain the 3/3 as long as CotS remains? currently to my knowledge the 3/3 only counts in the phase the card is played in. How does that make sense for new players?