Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on April 23, 2009, 07:17:46 AM
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Purple hero: After a successful rescue attempt place an evil character just defeated into opponent's land of bondage.
1) If I were to use them for a battle challenge, because there are no lost souls available to elders, and opponent blocked and was "defeated", could I then immediately rescue that lost soul?
2) I'm curious what "defeated" means. It's not a common term from what I can tell. I assume if I use CM on them they were "defeated"? Same thing with Glittering Sword or any enhancement that discards them, right? What about captured? Converted? Ignored? Returned to hand/deck? If it only applies to "discarded" then I'm not sure why it didn't just say that.
Thanks for your help.
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1) If I were to use them for a battle challenge, because there are no lost souls available to elders, and opponent blocked and was "defeated", could I then immediately rescue that lost soul?
I'm not sure where this lost soul is coming from. If you are asking if Elders' ability makes a battle challenge become a rescue, then no.
2) I'm curious what "defeated" means. It's not a common term from what I can tell. I assume if I use CM on them they were "defeated"? Same thing with Glittering Sword or any enhancement that discards them, right? What about captured? Converted? Ignored? Returned to hand/deck? If it only applies to "discarded" then I'm not sure why it didn't just say that.
From the REG:
"Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers."
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So it sounds like Yes to discard and ignore. Does it not work with capture and convert, because they are technically not an EC anymore? Return to hand/deck does not work because they are no longer in play? In all these cases the EC also failed to accomplish their objective (a successful block).
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Check out the first post in this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=13857.0) for a long analysis of defeat.
Short version:
If a character's objective is stopped, then they were defeated.
A character's objective is stopped via capture, conversion, return to hand, etc. As long as the character is still in play (so not return to hand), they can be put in the LoB.
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You mean still in play (or just discarded) as an EC, right? Not captured, and now a lost soul, and not converted, and now a hero, right? Sorry to be so dense, but I'm just trying to make a list of all the things that would trigger the special ability of elders of the city. So far I have: discarded by special ability, discarded by numbers, ignored, returned to territory.
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Any special ability that causes a character to win by removal would count as defeat, including capture and conversion.
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Wow. That's great, and I will use them more in my decks now, but the conversion part is the only one that seems "out of place". A Hero does a great thing by converting an EC to a hero, and then shortly thereafter sends that converted hero into a land of bondage as a lost soul. It seems odd for a hero to do this to a hero, but if that is how it works in this case then so be it. Thanks for the clarification.
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Defeat is based on the outcome of the battle. Elders won the battle, therefore they defeated the blocking EC.
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I thought because Elders specified EC that it couldn't capture a defeated character that was no longer an EC (i.e., capture or convert).
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I'm with Aggie (generally a safe place to be); doesn't Potiphar's Wife not capture a Hero who was converted by Evil Spirit, because it's not a Hero at the time she's trying to do her thing?
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Tim and Aggie are correct. All of these scenarios count as defeat, but the EC must still be available to target (i.e. still in play and still an Evil Character), similar to how you can't Ark of the Covenant a captured or converted EC.
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"still in play"? If they were discarded during the course of the battle, they are techinically not in play anymore, but elders can use use their ability on them, correct?
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No. Unless you grab them on their way out the door (losing by numbers, for example), they're already gone.
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Lol. Now it's looking less and less to me like the special ability of "Elders of the city" would EVER come up in upper level play. How many times to they win by a numbers battle? Seems like ignore is the only special ability left that could trigger this. Thanks again to all for all the explanations.
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...doesn't Potiphar's Wife not capture a Hero who was converted by Evil Spirit, because it's not a Hero at the time she's trying to do her thing?
This was discussed last year before States and officially confirmed that Pot's Wife does capture a Hero who's defeated by Evil Spirit. I didn't bother searching for the theads (I think there was more than one) because I'm fairly certain they've been deleted.
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Potiphar's Wife has a play as:
Play As: All male characters defeated (by a win or stalemate) by Potiphar’s Wife in battle are taken prisoner and placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul.
So she should capture a male defeated by Evil Spirit. Not the best example on Tim's part. ;)
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GAH! AGGIE'D AGAIN!
Is there no respite from the inescapable correctness of the Aggish one?
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Potiphar's Wife has a play as:
Play As: All male characters defeated (by a win or stalemate) by Potiphar’s Wife in battle are taken prisoner and placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage and treated as a Lost Soul.
So she should capture a male defeated by Evil Spirit. Not the best example on Tim's part. ;)
It seems to me that this would simply be an example of Potiphar's Wife about to deliver the finishing blow, then decides to take him captive instead.