Author Topic: Elders of the City (Read 2333 times)

celeres21 · « **on:** July 08, 2011, 01:19:32 AM »

What would happen when Elders of the City defeated Wandering Spirit...would he still go to opponents land of bondage even though I used a discard like AOC?

Elders of the City (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 6 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: After a successful rescue attempt, place one Evil Character just defeated into your opponent's Land of Bondage. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human • Verse: Ruth 4:2 •

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, put it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, place it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is being discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. •

I thought that when defeated, he is no longer going to dicard, but being captured, but I could be wrong.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:25:30 AM »

I would assume that Elders of the City's ability would work first because even if I played an enhancement that would place you beneath deck (there is none but bear with me) then you would still be defeated so he'd be placed in your land of bondage.

CJSports · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:38:18 AM »

What I think would happen is that WS would be placed on bottom from AoCP then you get a lost soul making it a successful rescue and not until then can you capture and since WS is on bottom of deck he's not target able.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:55:36 AM »

Quote from: CJSports on July 08, 2011, 09:38:18 AM

What I think would happen is that WS would be placed on bottom from AoCP then you get a lost soul making it a successful rescue and not until then can you capture and since WS is on bottom of deck he's not target able.

This is correct.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2011, 11:02:05 AM »

By the end of the successful rescue attempt most evil characters will not be in play: characters discarded, shuffled, or set-aside.

Why wouldn't this work like cards that negate the last enhancement played? Even though it is not in play, the character would still meet the condition of being defeated by Elders of the City. I would think these should be consistent.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:27:45 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 08, 2011, 09:55:36 AM

Quote from: CJSports on July 08, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
What I think would happen is that WS would be placed on bottom from AoCP then you get a lost soul making it a successful rescue and not until then can you capture and since WS is on bottom of deck he's not target able.

This is correct.

But even if he blocked with a different evil character and then EotC played AoC and the EC was dicarded then wouldn't the evil character technically be none-targetable so he wouldn't be captured making it so that the only thing you can do to the evil character is ignore them or capture them with an enhancement so that they are still targetable because they would still be "in play?"

CJSports · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:44:12 PM »

I'm thinking it is just because of how WS is worded that he is instead of being discarded/defeated he is going to bottom of deck instead. I think if it is any other EC being discarded I think that he would still be targetable after the rescue attempt but I'm not sure on this one. I don't have any support for this one so don't go by me....

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:48:25 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on July 08, 2011, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 08, 2011, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: CJSports on July 08, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
What I think would happen is that WS would be placed on bottom from AoCP then you get a lost soul making it a successful rescue and not until then can you capture and since WS is on bottom of deck he's not target able.

This is correct.
But even if he blocked with a different evil character and then EotC played AoC and the EC was dicarded then wouldn't the evil character technically be none-targetable so he wouldn't be captured making it so that the only thing you can do to the evil character is ignore them or capture them with an enhancement so that they are still targetable because they would still be "in play?"

Unfortunately for EotC, yes. So his ability is fairly useless.

CJSports · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:51:00 PM »

You could return him with [EDITED BY R.O.S.E.S].

celeres21 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2011, 10:36:50 AM »

I would also like to point out that EotC's ability does not specify that they have to be in play to capture, so could WS be captured from the bottom of the deck?

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2011, 10:41:43 AM »

Quote from: celeres21 on July 09, 2011, 10:31:18 AM

The definition of defeat is not being discarded, but losing the battle. If WS loses the battle, then he should be captured, regardless if he is being discarded. If both WS and EotC abilities are being activated at the same time (him being put on bottom of deck and EotC capturing him), Then how come his works first?

Battle Resolution
3. Resolve end-of-battle special ability based on the conditions established in Steps 1 and 2.

The problem with this is that EotC's ability says "After a successful rescue attempt...", not "After defeating an evil character...". Therefore, merely discarding WS does not meet the condition in EotC's ability. Your opponent relinquishing a redeemed soul is. And if AoCP is played to discard WS and he goes to the bottom of deck, there are many ways the rescue would not be "successful", such as Christian Martyr, Unholy Writ, Gates of Hell, Herod's Treachery, Magic Charms, Unknown Nation, Site Guard LS, etc. By the time it is confirmed that none of these "battle-extenders" are going to continue the battle and a redeemed soul is given over, WS is on the bottom of deck and out of play.

Also, abilities default to play unless stated otherwise.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:04:00 AM »

Quote from: celeres21 on July 09, 2011, 10:36:50 AM

I would also like to point out that EotC's ability does not specify that they have to be in play to capture, so could WS be captured from the bottom of the deck?

Cards can only be targeted if they are in play (unless otherwise stated by the targeting card).

celeres21 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:58:47 PM »

If that were true, then EotC's ability would be useless. If EotC wins the battle, then the evil character is either forced to withdraw, captured, set-aside, converted, discarded, or put back in the deck. Purple has no withdraw, capture, or set aside, so these would not work. If the character is converted, then EotC could not target a hero by that time. Both discard pile and draw pile are out of play, so this has left me with the understanding that because of newer ruling, people have made EotC have a useless ability.

Can anyone tell me how there ability would work?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:06:45 PM »

Quote from: celeres21 on July 09, 2011, 09:58:47 PM

Can anyone tell me how there ability would work?

Ignore (i.e. Peace Treaty)

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:08:00 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 09, 2011, 11:06:45 PM

Quote from: celeres21 on July 09, 2011, 09:58:47 PM
Can anyone tell me how there ability would work?

Ignore (i.e. Peace Treaty)

Also, a plain old win by the numbers would trigger EotC's ability.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:19:36 PM »

Quote from: browarod on July 09, 2011, 11:08:00 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 09, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: celeres21 on July 09, 2011, 09:58:47 PM
Can anyone tell me how there ability would work?

Ignore (i.e. Peace Treaty)
Also, a plain old win by the numbers would trigger EotC's ability.

Why? Following the other rulings, the EC would be in the discard pile by the time a LS is given, so it's out of play and not target-able by EotC.

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:45:12 PM »

Meh, nevermind. My brain was AWOL when I was thinking about that earlier.

ITT: Useless card is useless.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2011, 08:52:47 AM »

Elders of the City would work as intended if you played a card that ignored the defenders (there's a couple ways to do that in purple). It would also work if you played a card that forced the defenders to withdraw back to their territory (don't know of a way to do that off-hand).

galadgawyn · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2011, 12:54:16 PM »

I didn't get an answer to my point: why is this ruled differently than how "negate the last enhancement" is ruled?

The rule is that abilities target cards in play unless otherwise specified. What is the definition of "otherwise specified"? It would seem most intuitive to say that another location has to be specified but this is not how "negate the last enhancement" is ruled. Negate the last enhancement can negate enhancements that have been discarded; the target is not in play but is said to still be legal because it meets the definition of "last enhancement played".

With the given scenario, Wandering Spirit meets the definiton of "one evil character just defeated" so why doesn't Elders get to target like the negate last cards do? I don't see any logical reason for these to be different and I don't know of any game rule that would make it that way.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2011, 01:43:32 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 11, 2011, 12:54:16 PM

...I don't know of any game rule that would make it that way.

Negate Last is defined to include cards out of play, so it can.

Triggered SAs are not defined to include cards out of play, so they can not.

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 11, 2011, 12:54:16 PM

I don't see any logical reason for these to be different...

Logic is subjective.

FWIW, I agree that they should be ruled the same way.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2011, 02:48:03 PM »

I think it has to do with the fact that negate abilities don't target cards, they target abilities. Abilities don't have to be in play to be targeted, and the last enhancement is still the last enhancement no matter where it is at present. Negate all abilities like Foolish Advice specify abilities on character and enhancement cards, and so they can't target out of play abilities, since out of play abilities aren't on characters or enhancement cards in play.

That's my best attempt at an explanation.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2011, 04:22:17 PM »

But most of the "Negate last" enhancement cards are cards that say "Negate and discard the last good/evil enhancement played" or something along those lines. In this case would it target the card and the ability?

Gabe · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2011, 08:55:24 PM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on July 11, 2011, 04:22:17 PM

But most of the "Negate last" enhancement cards are cards that say "Negate and discard the last good/evil enhancement played" or something along those lines. In this case would it target the card and the ability?

What you mention here are two abilities paired together 1) Negate (and) 2) Discard.

Negate targets the special ability.

Discard targets the card.

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Author Topic: Elders of the City (Read 2333 times)

browarod

browarod