Author Topic: Elders of Jerusalem/Praises/Blessings (Read 5117 times)

The Guardian · « **on:** July 23, 2009, 05:31:47 AM »

If I play Praises (All White brigade Heroes in holder's territory must join the battle) and band in 3 Elders of Jerusalem (May band to Elders of Jerusalem. This banding ability cannot be negated), and then later I play Blessings (Negate all special abilities on characters and enhancements. FBN) would the second two Elders stay in battle? Basically, even though it wasn't an Elder that brought the others in, when they are banded in any way, does it have CBN status?

sk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:45:21 AM »

Elders of Jerusalem (May band to Elders of Jerusalem. This banding ability cannot be negated)

I would say no. EoJ only makes its own banding CBN, it doesn't make all banding CBN. Had EoJ's ability been used to bring the other two into battle instead, they should remain since EoJ CBN.

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:24:05 AM »

The first Elder (banded by Praises) would return to territory because the card that brought him into battle was negated. The 2nd & 3rd Elders that were banded would remain in battle because the ability that banded them into battle cannot be negated (even indirectly).

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:36:44 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on July 23, 2009, 08:24:05 AM

The first Elder (banded by Praises) would return to territory because the card that brought him into battle was negated. The 2nd & 3rd Elders that were banded would remain in battle because the ability that banded them into battle cannot be negated (even indirectly).

But it wasn't the first Elder's ability that brought the other two into battle, hence it can be negated. Now, lets say you had one copy of Elders of Jerusalem in territory and two copies in hand, you could band in the first with Praises and use the first copy to band your two from hand into battle. Then if you played Blessings, those two would stick around.

Kiirk

happyjosiah · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:41:17 AM »

I'm not sure, but I think all three would go back. My logic here is that praises is what brought all three elders in. (all white heroes MUST join). If you played something like Patriarch Travels (I think) that added one elder who then banded to the other two, then then second two would stay if blessings was played. Just becasue all three elders go back does not mean it is being indirectly negated: their banding ablity was never used in the first place.

EDIT: Ninja'd. I agree with Kirk.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:44:44 AM »

Kirk is right. I incorrectly assumed that the 2nd & 3rd Elders were brought into battle by the first instead of Praises.

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2009, 11:40:40 PM »

Ugh, that's what I was afraid of but I had such a fun combo planned...I even built a T2 deck around it...if anyone wants to do a game to see what it was, I wouldn't mind trying it--you just have to pretend that this is a legal play.

This isn't the actual combo, but if this worked then the combo would be legal also.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2009, 11:42:12 PM »

What networks you in Justin, I'll play

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2009, 11:49:06 PM »

pm sent

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:41:46 AM »

I have a Scenario - Based upon Tim's recent ruling/interpretation of Seige, wouldn't you bring in one elder, then he could choose to bring the rest in? That seems to be the way that it works based upon this thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16300.0
Then If he later played Blessings the First elder leaves, but the other would stay, I'm 99% positive this works.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2009, 07:42:06 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 24, 2009, 01:41:46 AM

I have a Scenario - Based upon Tim's recent ruling/interpretation of Seige, wouldn't you bring in one elder, then he could choose to bring the rest in? That seems to be the way that it works based upon this thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16300.0
Then If he later played Blessings the First elder leaves, but the other would stay, I'm 99% positive this works.

Good thinking, now I'm not sure. A card like siege selects all three elders to be banded in. One bands in and it's ability activates. Can it band to another one, at that point, even though it is already selected to be banded in? Hmm.

sk · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:03:02 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 24, 2009, 01:41:46 AM

I have a Scenario - Based upon Tim's recent ruling/interpretation of Seige, wouldn't you bring in one elder, then he could choose to bring the rest in? That seems to be the way that it works based upon this thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16300.0
Then If he later played Blessings the First elder leaves, but the other would stay, I'm 99% positive this works.

Remember, only "this" ability is CBN. The CBN status depends on which ability is doing the banding. The ability doesn't make all banding CBN, it just makes banding done by EoJ's ability CBN. Just because more banding happens later doesn't mean it suddenly becomes CBN.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:52:40 AM »

Yes but the argument is that only the first elder is brought in with praises. As soon as he is in battle, his ability activates and bands the other two in. Then any other heros would be banded in (assuming this is the order he chooses to do things in), one by one with their abilities activating as they join. In other words, it WOULD be the CBN ability banding in the second two. Hmm.

sk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:15:27 AM »

Right. Sorry, I thought ya'll were concocting something completely different.

Yes, you can band the other two EoJ in via EoJ before adding more characters via Praises. Hero abilities activate as they are added.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:21:49 AM »

I don't believe that is true. Since all characters must join the battle, everyone joins simultaneously. Their abilities may activate in any order, but you can not band in a character who is already in battle. In this case, if EoJs are in territory, Praises brings the other EoJs in, not their SA.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:29:04 AM »

And that's the other side. This is why I'm confused.
I'm not sure if the other elders are legal targets for the CBN band since praises has already targeted them to be banded in.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:44:11 AM »

I would argue that, as stated earlier, the Elders band would not be CBN, since Praises brought them into battle first. Elders' SA activates in battle in whatever order you want, but any Elders in your territory would already be in battle, so they could not be the targets. You would have to choose an Elder from hand, or draw one after a card like Words of Encouragement.

sk · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:46:24 AM »

I concur. I assumed they were coming from his hand in the latest scenario. YMT is right that they must be added to battle via Praises if in territory, and since the banding wasn't done via EoJ's ability, it doesn't have CBN status.

frisian9 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2009, 02:45:11 PM »

That is the way I see it also. Cards brought in by Praises are subject to being negated.

Mike

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2009, 09:44:34 PM »

Well yes that was never a question, the question is can one EoJ band to the others.

The two positions are like so:

Gabes, Sk's, Frisians, Kirks:

Characters all enter battle simultaneously, then you go through sequentially activating abilities.

Johns, Tim's, Justins:

Characters are all targeted then added to battle individually activating abilities as you go.

The First method is what the Current REG (Well see what the new one says) seems to support.

The Second is what recent game ruling trends support (I.E. abilities don't all happen at once, everything completes then move on.)

Both make perfect sense, and I have another question:

Why couldn't I band one elder to all the others, even if they all enter battle at the same time - consider this - Praises isn't complete until all the characters abilities activate, thus the hero's could be said to be in a "state" of being targeted for band. So then when I choose to activate my first elder he could band to all the others since they aren't technically banded yet, but rather targeted.

frisian9 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 25, 2009, 09:44:34 PM

the REG (Admittedly outdated in areas) seems to supportj

Was that really necessary? Even after going through the last year's worth of discussions, only a few minor changes were required.

Mike

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:27:11 PM »

Yes, there were only a few changes made, but there's also a complete overhaul in the works which is what I was trying to reference, I in no way intended that as a slight to you or the rules team, I'm sorry, and I apologize if it came across that way.

I've edited my previous post to more clearly state what I meant.

frisian9 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:37:15 PM »

Thanks for the reply. I see what you meant. Be assured that the new release shouldn't change the way the game is played or rulebook interpretted.

Mike

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:40:14 PM »

Shouldn't Or Won't?

I've heard alot of things that have been intended but not panned out that way (I.E. Split Altar anybody.)

D-man · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2009, 04:44:21 PM »

This is slightly off-topic, but I need to know something. Not having attended any major tournaments lately and not being in any prestigious Redemption circles, I am somewhat in the dark about Split Altar. Exactly what does it do, and why doesn't it play like intended?

Thanks.

News:

Author Topic: Elders of Jerusalem/Praises/Blessings (Read 5117 times)