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The CTB part of his SA would be a 7 (the rest would be a 3), which would still be before the enhancement at 8, if that's where placed enhancements fall.

I don't think that placed abilities are at #8. Gabe's examples represent scenarios that fit under #8, but most placed cards are not triggered. They are just there. That seems more like a gained ability.

sepjazz, consider a gained ability that lets you CTB. That would fall under #7, not #4.

Nope, its still a CTB ability, so it goes later.

That's what I said.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 08, 2009, 11:10:15 PM

Nope, its still a CTB ability, so it goes later.

That's what I said.

Misread it, my bad.

but that seems to go against the wording on the card if it activates as a weapon, its says on augr the enhancement activates when the character enters battle, which by no streatch of the imagination falls directly into a 8

Understand that this an order of operations that was devised by mathematicians in the early 17th Century.

The wording of the card is not what is relevant (per se). The type of ability is what matters. For example, if a banding hero enters battle with a weapon, logically the banding should come before the weapon since the banding is the hero's SA (#3). However, the PTBs decided that banding abilities come after weapon abilities. So the hero's SA is suspended until its designated time.

This may just be a question of semantics, but I see no difference between "when hero enters battle" and "abilities triggered by the beginning of battle." All abilities still have to activate when that hero enters and begins a battle. The order that they activate is clearly laid out.

Therein lies the problem. Your quick fix is not going to work, because some placed abilities are triggered by "beginning or entering battle," which forces them down to #8.

Well, I want my Jacob's Ladder to allow me to rescue my own Lost Souls, but it just doesn't work that way. Sorry. 

this doesnt have to be another jacobs ladder, so until someone with authority says that it doesnt work then it remains unruled officially.  

Tournament hosts have authority. It would do you well to listen to them, since they're the ones who will have to rule at tournaments.

And I just realized that sounds kind of arrogant. lol I'm just saying that I agree with YourMathTeacher.

2 - An Enhancement placed by someone like Agur or Elishana the Priest is an ability that triggers when the Hero enters battle, similar to the way Hidden Treasures triggers, isn't it?  Wouldn't that put those under #8?  Is there a difference between "hero enters battle" and "hero beggins a battle" that I'm missing?

Bumping this back to the top of the discussion, because this can make a huge difference.

Agur and co. all say "When hero enters battle" I think entering battle is what triggers ALL of his abilities, and then cards like HT trigger because once the heroes abilitys have completed, he has "begun the battle."

So, i'd organize the list like so:

1.  Declaration of Intent
2.  Hero leaves hand or territory
3.  Hero enters Field of Battle, all SA's and placed cards activate in this order:
  A.  Activate special ability on Hero, unless they add characters to battle.
  B.  Activate gained abilities, unless they add characters to battle.
  C.  Activate weapon-class abilities (none add characters to battle that I can think of)
  D.  Activate Placed Enhancements, unless they add characters to battle.
  E.  Activate banding abilities
  F.  Activate choose the blocker abilities
  G.  Activate special abilities triggered by the beginning of battle, such as HT.

That is how I've always played the order of abilities.

The only problem that I have with that is all of the placement cards are worded in such a way that the enhancement triggers upon the beginning of battle which makes them a G type special ability.

Also two scenario's to consider:


Scenario 1:

Rescue with ET and Play Unified Kingdom, all the heroes enter battle, among them is Jacob. Becuase I choose the order to activate special abilites I play Obediance of Noah off of Jacob. Is Obediance shunted down to F, or because its played off Jacob is it under his Umbrella of A type abilities?

Scenario 2:

You played Great Mourning against me.

Because Declaration of Intent comes first I choose the N.T. soul, then push Maharai into battle, this is legal because its not a rescue attempt but a battle challenge, Then using Maharai I band in Claudai making it a Rescue attempt, circumventing Great Mourning.

EDIT: Got Instaposted, this is directed towards Lamborghini's Order of Ops.

Additionally because all of these are a series of Operations which you do for each individual hero, when I play a mass band card like Unified Kingdom, there is nothing that stops me from choosing Ehud as the first hero, then Michael as the second, using Angel's Sword to Play Striking Herod and killing the EC.

The only problem that I have with that is all of the placement cards are worded in such a way that the enhancement triggers upon the beginning of battle which makes them a G type special ability.

No they arent. The following is taken straight from those cards: "The next time that Hero enters battle that enhancement activates and is discarded immediately."

It says enter battle, not begins battle. So, it activates around step D in my list.

Scenario 1:

Rescue with ET and Play Unified Kingdom, all the heroes enter battle, among them is Jacob. Becuase I choose the order to activate special abilites I play Obediance of Noah off of Jacob. Is Obediance shunted down to F, or because its played off Jacob is it under his Umbrella of A type abilities?

My list is for just a single card with multiple abilities. Besides, with jacob, Obediance would be the last card to activate for HIS order of abilities. Then, you would band in another character after his abilities finish, including Obed. I would see playing a mass band enhancement as a viable method to CTB and then play a card afterwards.

You played Great Mourning against me.

Because Declaration of Intent comes first I choose the N.T. soul, then push Maharai into battle, this is legal because its not a rescue attempt but a battle challenge, Then using Maharai I band in Claudai making it a Rescue attempt, circumventing Great Mourning.

Issue, I said Declaration of Intent comes first. If what I listed is true, then you wouldnt even be allowed to SAY "im going for the NT soul." GM says you cannot make a RA, so you cannot DECLARE a soul is to be rescued at all, meaning you could ONLY enter battle with a battle challenge. So this point is null.

Additionally because all of these are a series of Operations which you do for each individual hero, when I play a mass band card like Unified Kingdom, there is nothing that stops me from choosing Ehud as the first hero, then Michael as the second, using Angel's Sword to Play Striking Herod and killing the EC.

Yes, I see banding Ehud in first, and then Michael second to be a viable way to do this. I actually had a combo built around that.

Sepjazz may have been right earlier in the thread: Placed cards need to be added to the Order of Operations for clarity. I always just based their activation on the type of ability, but if there is this much uncertainty, then clarification is necessary.

I've been saying that for a long time now.

But wait! I haz proofs!

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12931.0

Almost a year earlier.