Author Topic: Egyptian Wise Men Should Be Magicians (Read 4298 times)

Chris · « **on:** December 19, 2012, 04:18:31 PM »

Quote

Genesis 41:8 - And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

As I'm sure most of you know, this passage is referring to the story of Joseph, when Pharaoh had a prophetic dream, and called for the magicians and wise men to interpret it for him. While the groups are clearly distinctive in the actual Bible verse, according to the REG, the Redemption definition of "Magician" is as follows, "evil characters that practiced or performed sorcery, divination, enchantment, astrology, wizardry, or other magical arts with the help of demonic forces." The bolded part is what I want to focus on here, as the dictionary definition of "divination" is "The practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means."

Considering the fact that the Redemption character is evil, I think it's safe to assume that these "wise men" were not seeking answers from God, which leaves the question: how exactly were they attempting to interpret this dream? The only possible answer is through some pagan method, and while they were not successful, the definition of "divination" doesn't say anything about actually succeeding in seeking knowledge of the future, only attempting it.

Additionally, while one might use the argument that we don't know that they ever used the help of demonic forces, we don't know that for the Egyptian Magicians (which do have the magician identifier) either. The only distinction is that they were called Magicians. My thought then, is that we should either tweak the definition of magician to include "...or if the Bible referred to them as magicians," or admit that there's some wiggle room in the section referring to demonic power, and consider adding Egyptian Wise Men to the list.

STAMP · « **Reply #1 on:** December 19, 2012, 04:26:59 PM »

They were wise men, not magicians. That's my take.

KingLeo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 19, 2012, 04:35:25 PM »

Question since in the Bible passage that you have it says magicians and wise men wouldn't that implore that there two different occupations.....

KingLeo

Master KChief · « **Reply #3 on:** December 19, 2012, 04:54:05 PM »

Question has been asked before and ruled because of the reason King Leo has given.

Chris · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:01:10 PM »

Are we simply ignoring the Redemption definition then? I at least want to know why they wouldn't be considered magicians under that definition other than "there are two groups in that verse". Redemption definitions tend to be a bit unconventional, which is why I don't believe that that argument fits here.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:03:54 PM »

There is no evidence that they used demonic powers to attempt to interpret the dream, they could have used ancient Egyptian psychology

Chris · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:04:51 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 19, 2012, 04:18:31 PM

Additionally, while one might use the argument that we don't know that they ever used the help of demonic forces, we don't know that for the Egyptian Magicians (which do have the magician identifier) either. The only distinction is that they were called Magicians. My thought then, is that we should either tweak the definition of magician to include "...or if the Bible referred to them as magicians," or admit that there's some wiggle room in the section referring to demonic power, and consider adding Egyptian Wise Men to the list.

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:25:52 PM »

I may practice basic forms of medical treatment, but that still doesn't make me a doctor.

Furthermore, it doesn't specifically say that the wise men used the practice of divination to come to their conclusions. They may have simply used their own common sense. Psychologists in today's world help to interpret dreams. They don't use divination.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:29:03 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 19, 2012, 05:25:52 PM

Psychologists in today's world help to interpret dreams. They don't use divination.

Yeah. In fact, they don't even need to use science!

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:29:45 PM »

I think in general if the Bible calls someone an identifier the character gets the identifier.

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:40:16 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on December 19, 2012, 05:29:03 PM

Quote from: STAMP on December 19, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
Psychologists in today's world help to interpret dreams. They don't use divination.
Yeah. In fact, they don't even need to use science!

...or the Bible.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 19, 2012, 05:25:52 PM

They may have simply used their own common sense. Psychologists in today's world help to interpret dreams. They don't use divination.

If someone told me they had a dream about cows and grain eating each other, I would probably say they had some childhood issues with farms.

STAMP · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2012, 05:46:09 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 19, 2012, 05:43:55 PM

Quote from: STAMP on December 19, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
They may have simply used their own common sense. Psychologists in today's world help to interpret dreams. They don't use divination.

If someone told me they had a dream about cows and grain eating each other, I would probably say they had some childhood issues with farms.

Maybe "Twister" had an adverse effect on them?

STAMP · « **Reply #13 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:25:53 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 19, 2012, 04:18:31 PM

Considering the fact that the Redemption character is evil, I think it's safe to assume that these "wise men" were not seeking answers from God, which leaves the question: how exactly were they attempting to interpret this dream? The only possible answer is through some pagan method,

This is the hole in your logic. How did you come to the conclusion of the only possible answer being a pagan method?

jbeers285 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:27:36 PM »

because if we saw that egyptian wise men where seeking Yahweh then they should be hero's obviously they werent meaning they were seeking wisdom from where exactly?

No man can serve two masters so if it wasnt God it was . . . .

STAMP · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:30:00 PM »

Why must they be "pagan"? Could they not have been "worldly" men who have no belief system?

jbeers285 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:30:58 PM »

no belief system is a pagan belief system . . . and really is that logcial at all considering the time period and where they were located?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:40:17 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on December 19, 2012, 06:30:58 PM

no belief system is a pagan belief system . . . and really is that logcial at all considering the time period and where they were located?

These same "wise men" were probably developing Pascal's Triangle long before he wrote it in a book. Would their study of early mathematics also be "pagan?"

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #18 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:41:43 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 19, 2012, 06:25:53 PM

This is the hole in your logic. How did you come to the conclusion of the only possible answer being a pagan method?

Proposition: EWM are magicians due to the events described.
Proposition: EWM would not be magicians from the events described if they had not used divination.
Conclusion: EWM used divination.
QED

Also, is the dude in my avatar a magician? Or just Muslim?

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #19 on:** December 19, 2012, 06:57:08 PM »

I would have to agree with the logic in the origanal statement.
this is from Daniel chapter 2
"So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, “I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means."4 Then the astrologers answered the king, “May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”
This shows that these people often get grouped into the same category in the bible. In the verse of the wise men, it is a great possibility that they were grouping them together for the sake of shortening things with Oral tradition that was used until the around the 11th century B.C when the first scrolls written for the Torah were supposed to have been written. otherwise, every time that the wise men are mentioned, they would have to make a long list of the people like at the beginning of this verse.
also, I would have to agree with the Wise men and Magi thing. The Hebrew people would have used the same words for the same thing in the new and old testament when they were passing it on by Oral tradition. they would have used the language that they grew up reading in their sacred writings. so I think that the Wise men should be considered Magicians.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2012, 07:03:36 PM »

Are we really that afraid of Egyptian wisemen getting into magician decks? Or Egyptians getting someone that makes charms playable?

Chris · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2012, 07:11:01 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on December 19, 2012, 07:03:36 PM

Are we really that afraid of Egyptian wisemen getting into magician decks? Or Egyptians getting someone that makes charms playable?

It's a matter of consistency, which I understand. I admit that the argument is weaker than I first thought when I created the topic, though I still stick by it (I'm pretty sure "wise men" didn't equate to "ancient psychologists," but I'm trying to find proof of that).

Iamalittleking · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2012, 07:14:07 PM »

so are we saying that the wise men that came to see Jesus are magicians to. Just because some one is smart and is falsely used to interpret dreams does not mean you are a magician. Unless i have misunderstanding of how redemption defines a magician i do not see how they could be one.

STAMP · « **Reply #23 on:** December 19, 2012, 07:17:46 PM »

Quote from: Chris on December 19, 2012, 07:11:01 PM

I admit that the argument is weaker than I first thought when I created the topic,

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** December 19, 2012, 07:18:33 PM »

1 Samuel 6:2 is the reference on Philistine Priests. Discuss among yourselves.

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Author Topic: Egyptian Wise Men Should Be Magicians (Read 4298 times)

Chris

Chris

Chris

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!

Chris