Author Topic: EC on site  (Read 3658 times)

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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EC on site
« on: May 09, 2017, 08:14:44 AM »
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So there is a LS that lets you place an EC on a site and band it into battle when opponent makes a RA at the site.  What happens if the LS gets removed from the site?  The LS is rescued by SoG?  The LS is negated by Moses?  If there is no LS in the site and the EC is still there and you use the site for access later, what happens to the EC?  Thanks

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 10:33:01 AM »
+1
The EC is still there and can be used if you put another soul in it. If the site gets removed from play I believe the EC placed on it should follow it.

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 12:05:14 PM »
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so even though the ability that lets the EC enter battle is no longer there/is negated, the EC can still enter battle?

kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 12:34:34 PM »
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It's like an ec in your hand at that point

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 12:41:44 PM »
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how so?  the original ability allows you to add it to battle when opponent has access to the site.  its only the ability that allows you to have the EC enter battle.

kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 12:58:17 PM »
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It's an ongoing add to battle ability which can only activate, like you will remain, while it is in play and not negated

When the soul goes away the ec stays in your terroritory but is technically out of play like a face down artifact. You can still use it similarly to blocking from hand but the add to battle is no longer an option

Offline The Guardian

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 01:25:48 PM »
+1
So there is a LS that lets you place an EC on a site and band it into battle when opponent makes a RA at the site.  What happens if the LS gets removed from the site?  The LS is rescued by SoG?  The LS is negated by Moses?  If there is no LS in the site and the EC is still there and you use the site for access later, what happens to the EC?  Thanks

Removed from Site or Rescued: EC sits there facedown. It can only be targeted by a card that targets facedown cards and it cannot be used to block unless another LS is placed at the Site. As a placed card, it would follow the Site.

If the LS is negated in the same phase, the EC would return to hand. If it's a later phase, then the EC could not block (it would just sit there until the LS was no longer negated).

If the Site was empty (with a facedown EC) and used for access, the EC would be "in battle" but would have no bearing on the battle.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 02:12:36 PM »
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so kariusvega are you saying you can block with the facedown EC as if from hand whenever you want?

why does putting another LS in the site then allow you to block with the EC?  The ability that allows you to block with the EC is from the previous LS, not the new one.  Are you saying the ability to block follows the facedown EC and not the LS it came from?

kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 03:59:35 PM »
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so kariusvega are you saying you can block with the facedown EC as if from hand whenever you want?

why does putting another LS in the site then allow you to block with the EC?  The ability that allows you to block with the EC is from the previous LS, not the new one.  Are you saying the ability to block follows the facedown EC and not the LS it came from?

it doesn't, it would have to be the same lost soul to trigger the ability once again. correct.

no. the ability to add to battle is it's own on going ability similar to you will remain. i was merely pointing out that once the lost soul is gone your ec is not stuck in limbo- you can use it to block as you would blocking with an ec from hand or territory etc it just won't be targeted as an ec in play for general purposes if it was hit by say aocp

Offline The Guardian

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 04:03:35 PM »
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Quote
it doesn't, it would have to be the same lost soul to trigger the ability once again. correct.

no. the ability to add to battle is it's own on going ability similar to you will remain. i was merely pointing out that once the lost soul is gone your ec is not stuck in limbo- you can use it to block as you would blocking with an ec from hand or territory etc it just won't be targeted as an ec in play for general purposes if it was hit by say aocp

I think we have different understandings of how that LS works.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 10:34:04 PM »
+2
Quote
it cannot be used to block unless another LS is placed at the Site
I recall this being a discussion a while ago and it came out on the side of still being able to block normally with the sequestered EC.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 06:39:35 AM »
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so with the LS still in the site and no access could you still block normally, just not add the EC to battle at any time?

kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 06:47:23 AM »
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I'm saying definitely yes

Offline Gabe

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 08:49:06 AM »
+1
TLDR; The Guardian is 100% accurate in his ruling. Some of the comments made by JD are inaccurate and should be disregarded.

Quote
When you place this card in a Site, you may put an Evil Character face down from hand, The Darkness or Tartaros on that Site. During a rescue attempt at that Site, you may add that Character to the battle.

This Lost Soul creates some situations that can be difficult to understand. If it were written today it would probably be worded more like this.

Quote
If you put this card in a Site, you may place an Evil Character face down from hand, The Darkness or Tartaros on that Site: At any time during a rescue attempt at that Site, you may add that character to battle.

The first part of the ability allows the Evil Character to be placed on a Site. As long as it remains placed everything in the second part (after the colon in the example SA) is active. That's the part that I think might be misunderstood.

In order to be able to add the character to battle a couple conditions must be met. 1) There must be a rescue attempt taking place 2) a Hero in battle has to have access to the Site. If both of those conditions aren't being met then the Evil Character can do nothing.

Lost Souls are only active while in play. If the Lost Soul is rescued the Evil Character will remain placed (an instant ability completed in a previous phase) but will not be able to be added to the battle (an ongoing ability tied to the Lost Soul being active).

The REG entry for Place tells us that "Placed cards remain where they are placed indefinitely." so you may not "unplace" the face down character to block with it as if it was in your hand or territory.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2017, 09:58:42 AM »
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So just to clarify, if the LS is negated (at least a phase after the EC was placed) or rescued/buried, the EC cannot be added to battle, correct?

Offline Gabe

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 10:30:49 AM »
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So just to clarify, if the LS is negated (at least a phase after the EC was placed) or rescued/buried, the EC cannot be added to battle, correct?

Correct, at least not while the Lost Soul remains negated.
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kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 11:14:35 AM »
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Asked these questions before

http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/site-guard-lost-soul-35998/msg544625/#msg544625

Is it still stuck placed if the site goes away, for example placed on new Jerusalem, it becomes bride of Christ
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:21:20 AM by kariusvega »

Offline Gabe

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 11:22:05 AM »
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Asked these questions before

http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/site-guard-lost-soul-35998/msg544625/#msg544625

There are a number of inaccurate statements made in that thread which I addressed above while citing the rules that pertain to them. The rules for placed cards have not been updated since 2015, prior to the discussion you linked.

Is it still stuck placed if the site goes away

Placed cards follow the card they are placed upon.
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kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 11:23:54 AM »
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So new Jerusalem with no soul in it goes into battle or can it even be put into battle with the ec stuck on it is it still in your lob?

Offline Gabe

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 11:30:14 AM »
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So new Jerusalem with no soul in it goes into battle or can it even be put into battle with the ec stuck on it is it still in your lob?

The Guardian already answer that question, didn't he?

If the Site was empty (with a facedown EC) and used for access, the EC would be "in battle" but would have no bearing on the battle.
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kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2017, 11:41:43 AM »
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3 elders answered my questions before to the contrary so I guess stuck is the current ruling

I do want to point out word of mouth in the case of special initiative seems to trump the reg. Wouldn't be the first time considering select isn't a special ability but neither is tear this card in half for plot

And to clarify I was referring to if the site is converted what happens to the ec then it cannot continuously be placed to a new card
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:44:05 AM by kariusvega »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2017, 11:51:57 AM »
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Quote
I do want to point out word of mouth in the case of special initiative seems to trump the reg. Wouldn't be the first time considering select isn't a special ability but neither is tear this card in half for plot

Huh? Select is an english word that is used for exactly what it means--same with "tear in half."

Quote
And to clarify I was referring to if the site is converted what happens to the ec then it cannot continuously be placed to a new card

Evil cards are placed on Heroes all the time--this one would just happen to be face down.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2017, 11:54:14 AM »
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Pointing out other things you don't agree with or feel are inconsistent does not justify going against the written rules in other situations.

I do want to point out word of mouth in the case of special initiative seems to trump the reg.

Special initiative works correctly as it's written in the REG. You've taken something that you overheard the elders talking about and blown it out of proportion. Yes, we might clarify the language in V5.0 (the after Nats release) but it functions correctly as it's currently written.
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kariusvega

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2017, 11:54:39 AM »
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Right but if it follows the card and it becomes a new card which is why the convert abilities on the new sites are cbi how is the ec still stuck to it

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Re: EC on site
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2017, 11:57:29 AM »
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Right but if it follows the card and it becomes a new card which is why the convert abilities on the new sites are cbi how is the ec still stuck to it

The REG entry for Place tells us that "Placed cards remain where they are placed indefinitely."

It doesn't feel like you're trying to understand this, JD. Only arguing. You have a ruling from two elders. You probably won't get another reply from me here. Give me a call if you seriously don't understand something.
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