Author Topic: Dust & Ashes targets Job wherever he is. (Read 14043 times)

browarod · « **Reply #75 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:11:31 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on August 20, 2013, 04:10:11 PM

Yet we can discard a hand of zero to satisfy PO...

That will always and forever irk me.

The Guardian · « **Reply #76 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:30:55 PM »

Doesn't PO say minimum 7 cards?

Or were you referring to the blocking player?

Gabe · « **Reply #77 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:31:36 PM »

Quote from: browarod on August 20, 2013, 04:11:31 PM

Quote from: STAMP on August 20, 2013, 04:10:11 PM
Yet we can discard a hand of zero to satisfy PO...
That will always and forever irk me.

Even though it's only theoretical and never actually happened... because Primary Objective sees little to no play and emptying your opponent's hand is difficult even when using a hand control deck.

Quote from: The Guardian on August 20, 2013, 04:30:55 PM

Doesn't PO say minimum 7 cards?

For you, the opponent just has to discard their hand.

browarod · « **Reply #78 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:44:03 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 20, 2013, 04:31:36 PM

Quote from: browarod on August 20, 2013, 04:11:31 PM
Quote from: STAMP on August 20, 2013, 04:10:11 PM
Yet we can discard a hand of zero to satisfy PO...
That will always and forever irk me.

Even though it's only theoretical and never actually happened... because Primary Objective sees little to no play and emptying your opponent's hand is difficult even when using a hand control deck.

It's the principal of the thing. [/soapbox]

I'm more annoyed by the same ruling in reference to Sinning Hand than PO.

STAMP · « **Reply #79 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:44:23 PM »

Make up my mind. Is it theoretical or is it a rule? If it is a rule, then discarding a hand happens regardless of the condition of its contents (0 or n cards; insteaded or not; etc.).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #80 on:** August 20, 2013, 05:15:51 PM »

Actually discarding a hand of zero to fulfill Primary Objective (for the blocker) is completely consistent with the rule that Job not getting shuffled by Mayhem will not allow you to draw.

Primary Objective says "discard entire hand" (or something to that effect), if my hand has 0 cards in it, I discard the entire hand of 0, thus fulfilling the condition.

In the Mayhem - Job situation, I have to shuffle my entire hand (which includes Job) so my hand has n cards in it and I only shuffle n - 1 cards, therefore not my entire hand.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #81 on:** August 20, 2013, 06:09:20 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 20, 2013, 03:59:04 PM

So Job players get punished for keeping him in hand...

Kirk

Or whenever DNA sends him back to hand.

As far as "known" and "unknown" locations go, this is something from Pokemon (I believe it's in other games as well) that has inevitably influenced both Olijar and me. Basically the concept states that the gamestate knows whether there is a valid target or not. Thus if you search your opponent's deck and there's a valid target, you have to take it, because the deck is a "known" location. However, as a general rule, you can't target a specific card in opponent's hand because the location is unknown (I can't currently think of an example). In Redemption, default conditions tend to fill this role, but known/unknown is essentially a way of simplifying everything. The really confusing thing is that the deck can't be looked at at any time, so it doesn't follow the common known/unknown location rules. Olijar and I like to think it's a logical rule and should be applied to Redemption situations.
As far as the purpose of it, it's a rule to stop lying. In Pokemon you can search your deck and not take a target because your opponent shouldn't know the contents of your deck--including whether you have a valid target or not--so that nobody can lie and say there was no valid target and then the opponent throws a fit when there actually was, but at that point there's no way to prove it and he gets screwed. This was brought up in past and Gabe basically said feel free to call a judge over if somebody fails a search. Personally, it seems strategic to play Birth Foretold at certain situations and not grab Son of God, baiting your opponent into playing Vain Philosophy/Mayhem when you actually don't have a good hand, and I really don't know what would happen if my opponent played Vain Philosophy immediately after only to discover it's not in my hand. But I digress.

Gabe · « **Reply #82 on:** August 20, 2013, 07:45:55 PM »

Pokemon =/= Redemption. Stop confusing yourselves by trying to cross over rules.

Praeceps · « **Reply #83 on:** August 20, 2013, 08:45:57 PM »

I'm confused. Is Mayhem a "Do as much as you can" or not? If it is, wouldn't you draw regardless of whether Job is insteaded? If its not, then wouldn't Job getting insteaded stop the shuffle under the idea that if you can't do all of it, you don't do any of it?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #84 on:** August 20, 2013, 08:49:20 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on August 20, 2013, 08:45:57 PM

I'm confused. Is Mayhem a "Do as much as you can" or not? If it is, wouldn't you draw regardless of whether Job is insteaded? If its not, then wouldn't Job getting insteaded stop the shuffle under the idea that if you can't do all of it, you don't do any of it?

Mayhem is a shuffle hand to draw 6, so if the shuffle your hand doesn't go through in its entirety, then you don't get to draw 6. It does fall a bit to do as much as you can, like if you only have 4 cards in your deck, you still get to draw them, or if Job gets insteaded, you still shuffle the rest of your hand (although in this case you won't get to draw)

Praeceps · « **Reply #85 on:** August 20, 2013, 08:52:07 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on August 20, 2013, 08:49:20 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on August 20, 2013, 08:45:57 PM
I'm confused. Is Mayhem a "Do as much as you can" or not? If it is, wouldn't you draw regardless of whether Job is insteaded? If its not, then wouldn't Job getting insteaded stop the shuffle under the idea that if you can't do all of it, you don't do any of it?

Mayhem is a shuffle hand to draw 6, so if the shuffle your hand doesn't go through in its entirety, then you don't get to draw 6. It does fall a bit to do as much as you can, like if you only have 4 cards in your deck, you still get to draw them, or if Job gets insteaded, you still shuffle the rest of your hand (although in this case you won't get to draw)

So you're saying it both is and isn't a do as much as you can?

Followup: Where on Mayhem does it say it has to be the entire hand? I thought it just said "shuffle hand".

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #86 on:** August 20, 2013, 09:04:07 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on August 20, 2013, 08:52:07 PM

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on August 20, 2013, 08:49:20 PM
Quote from: Praeceps on August 20, 2013, 08:45:57 PM
I'm confused. Is Mayhem a "Do as much as you can" or not? If it is, wouldn't you draw regardless of whether Job is insteaded? If its not, then wouldn't Job getting insteaded stop the shuffle under the idea that if you can't do all of it, you don't do any of it?

Mayhem is a shuffle hand to draw 6, so if the shuffle your hand doesn't go through in its entirety, then you don't get to draw 6. It does fall a bit to do as much as you can, like if you only have 4 cards in your deck, you still get to draw them, or if Job gets insteaded, you still shuffle the rest of your hand (although in this case you won't get to draw)

So you're saying it both is and isn't a do as much as you can?

Followup: Where on Mayhem does it say it has to be the entire hand? I thought it just said "shuffle hand".

I said that you have to shuffle your hand to draw 6. But there are parts that, in the right circumstances, will fall into do as much as you can.

Shuffle hand is functionally the same as shuffle entire hand. Since Mayhem is a cost benefit ability, you have to fulfill the cost (shuffling your hand) in order to get the benefit (draw 6). If Job is insteaded then you haven't shuffled your hand, you've only shuffled part of it, just like if your opponent has Nazareth they don't shuffle their hand (they didn't pay the cost) so they don't get to draw 6.

Praeceps · « **Reply #87 on:** August 20, 2013, 09:49:04 PM »

Okay, I see how it works now. Tanks for the explanation.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #88 on:** August 20, 2013, 09:59:30 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on August 20, 2013, 09:49:04 PM

Now see, this is what I'm not getting. You say you have to shuffle the entire hand to draw. That makes perfect sense. You justify this by saying that shuffle hand is the same as shuffle the entire hand. Makes perfect sense. Then you say that if you can't shuffle your entire hand, you still have to shuffle what you can. Say what? Either shuffle hand means Shuffle the Entire Hand or it means shuffle as much of the hand as you legally can, but you're telling me it means both at the same time...

The default rule is that you do as much as you can, if I play Wrath of Satan and I am unable to discard my opponent's Gideon (because of Angel Under the Oak) then I would still discard every other hero. The same applies to the Shuffle ability on Mayhem, even if one card get's insteaded you still shuffle your hand. However, Mayhem is also a cost benefit ability linked to whether or not you shuffled your entire hand. So because you didn't shuffle your entire hand, you don't get to draw 6.

So the shuffle your hand is a do as much as you can ability. But the draw 6 only happens if you shuffle your entire hand.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #89 on:** August 21, 2013, 11:13:10 AM »

I don't have time to read this entire thread, and some of the recent posts are referencing earlier posts, apparently. What is the current official ruling about abilities that specify targets, but those targets are in the hand?

For instance:

Job discarded from hand randomly when Dust & Ashes is active.
An angel discarded from hand randomly when Chamber of Angels is active.
etc.

STAMP · « **Reply #90 on:** August 21, 2013, 11:21:07 AM »

I don't know.

(That's all I can say, otherwise my post may get whacked.

)

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #91 on:** August 21, 2013, 11:33:36 AM »

Quote

Job discarded from hand randomly when Dust & Ashes is active.
An angel discarded from hand randomly when Chamber of Angels is active.

Let's see if I can get this correct:

1. Job would be discarded unless it was a nuetral or evil ability discarding him.

2. Angel goes to Chamber regardless of alignment.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #92 on:** August 21, 2013, 11:41:36 AM »

RTS is correct. Instead abilities apply to cards in any location: hand, deck, discard pile, play, set-aside area, etc. Thus if Job is harmed (targeted by a neutral or evil card) then he goes to D&A no matter where he is currently. If an Angel is discarded (by any ability, no matter where it is) then it goes to Chamber.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #93 on:** August 21, 2013, 12:24:00 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up.

Josh · « **Reply #94 on:** August 21, 2013, 12:39:56 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 20, 2013, 03:59:04 PM

So ~~Job players~~ all players get punished for ~~keeping him in hand~~ having Mayhem played against them...

FTFY

Redoubter · « **Reply #95 on:** July 24, 2014, 06:31:53 PM »

I understand that this thread is dead and buried, but for the sake of clarity due to this ruling being referenced elsewhere, and this being the only location you can find this particular ruling spelled-out, I wanted to add a piece to the discussion that makes most of it moot:

Dust and Ashes
When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated.

So while the ruling is correct that you cannot draw if you decide to put Job in Dust and Ashes (as the cost of shuffling your entire hand was not done, you do not get the benefit of drawing 6), the ability is optional. There is no penalty for playing Job decks and getting Mayhem'd (though perhaps a Nazzy or two would help anyway, since he goes to your hand so often anyway), as you can still choose not to instead the shuffle; since he goes with the rest of your hand, the benefit (drawing 6) occurs as normal.

News:

Author Topic: Dust & Ashes targets Job wherever he is. (Read 14043 times)

browarod

browarod

Warrior_Monk