Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 19, 2013, 10:42:34 AM

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 19, 2013, 10:14:57 AM

The issue isn't how instead works (as that clearly does the way Westy described), the issue is if the definition of "harmed" applies to cards in hand. I think it would make more sense for it to not apply (because of cards like VP and Mayhem) but I don't know for sure.

The definition of harm requires that the card be targeted by an effect from the opposing alignment.

Well, technically, it just has to be a different alignment. Artifacts can harm Heroes and ECs as well.

I agree that at face value the rules on harm would say that a card in hand can be harmed, but I don't know that the particular situation has come up or has been considered beofre, which may require some re-evaluation.

Here's what would trip me up:

I have Job in hand (maybe just after he spent a turn in D&A) and D&A in set-aside. My opponent plays Mayhem. According to the definition of harm, Job has been harmed and thus goes to D&A. However, since part of the shuffle is insteaded, I did not shuffle my hand to draw 6. Therefore, I don't have a hand, just because I use Job and got Mayhem'd at an inopportune time. That's something I'd rather avoid. The same logic was applied to Birth Foretold and Son of God, which is why SoG is not protected by BF in hand.

Unless the rule that targeting defaults to play was made because of Mayhem and Birth Foretold, then that is not why birth foretold is not protected in hand.   Its not protected in hand because protect defaults to play, and hand is not in play.

Herod's Temple doesn't specifically target any character.

I think it's both. VP specifically targets Job and sends him under but that is insteaded by DA specifically targeting Job. Mayhem specifically targets the players' hand, and the game has no way to check that Job being targeted because the hand is not public knowledge.

The game doesn't know that. The game does know that vain is underdecking job. If a random card was underdecked that happened to be job I'd say no d and a does not activate because it is not necessary to show the random card when it is underdecked. Vain shows as far as I know so the game knows its job and it is insteaded

Praise Him Moon reveals your opponents hand so it the game knows Lahmi is in it.

No, it doesn't, because the band and look at hand are two separate abilities. Once the look at hand stops, the hand becomes unknown again (as far as the game is concerned). Vain is linked, so the game does know that Job is being underdecked.

So a Birth Fortold SoG is not protected from Mayhem because we dont want Mayhem to be that powerful, right?

It's not protected because the game can't confirm where Son of God is unless it's in a known location like Play/Set Aside/Discard/etc. For example, I would rule it couldn't be removed from your discard pile if you BF'd the same turn it was being targeted.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 19, 2013, 08:53:43 PM

Praise Him Moon reveals your opponents hand so it the game knows Lahmi is in it.

No, it doesn't, because the band and look at hand are two separate abilities. Once the look at hand stops, the hand becomes unknown again (as far as the game is concerned). Vain is linked, so the game does know that Job is being underdecked.

Then you can never band a hero into battle from that hand, with your interpretation.

One thing I want to point out is that, to the best my knowledge, there is no precedent in Redemption that the game needs to "know" anything, though I'm fully open to the possibility that this assumption is incorrect. That said, even if it is a valid way to establish rulings, it still doesn't necessarily keep Mayhem from shuffling Job. What if I played Sorrow of Mary (a reveal - not just a look) to put a good card under the deck, and right after that, I play Mayhem while Job is in that hand? For all intents and purposes, the game knows that Job was in hand. What if I'm playing Teams, and someone chooses to reveal that they have a Job in hand (per the rules of the category) without actually playing him, and then the opponent (or heck, even the teammate) plays Mayhem? Again, the game knows that Job is in the hand, only this time, it's not even via a special ability.

It's not protected because the game can't confirm where Son of God is unless it's in a known location like Play/Set Aside/Discard/etc. For example, I would rule it couldn't be removed from your discard pile if you BF'd the same turn it was being targeted.

It's not protected because Birth Foretold's protection defaults to play. That is definitely the current ruling, regardless of what you think it should be. Ruling that it couldn't be removed from the discard pile if BF was played beforehand would be a bad ruling.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 19, 2013, 11:22:59 PM

Quote from: Westy on August 19, 2013, 10:42:18 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 19, 2013, 08:53:43 PM

Praise Him Moon reveals your opponents hand so it the game knows Lahmi is in it.

No, it doesn't, because the band and look at hand are two separate abilities. Once the look at hand stops, the hand becomes unknown again (as far as the game is concerned). Vain is linked, so the game does know that Job is being underdecked.

Then you can never band a hero into battle from that hand, with your interpretation.

Technically, you would be correct because they're two separate abilities. The definition of band states that you can only band to heroes in a territory or your hand anyway, so Praise Him Moon is pretty much worthless either way. Poor wording.

That is the default yes, it is saying that you cannot present Jacob and ask an opponent if he has Captain in his hand to band to. I think PHM is a case of a special ability overriding game rule.

The game doesn't know that. The game does know that vain is underdecking job. If a random card was underdecked that happened to be job I'd say no d and a does not activate because it is not necessary to show the random card when it is underdecked. Vain shows as far as I know so the game knows its job and it is insteaded

I just read through the REG entry of "Instead", and I see no reference to "the game knowing something" affecting how instead abilities work.  The precedence is "instead abilities target abilities, and thus are not restricted to the field of play".  It seems that the logical conclusion is "if Job is harmed anywhere, in any way, he is placed in Dust and Ashes".  Therefore, Job being shuffled/underdecked by Mayhem/VP are both conditions to be "insteaded" by DaA.

Is this "known to the game" idea in the REG anywhere?  If not, then I don't think it should be used for ruling questions.

I agree with jmhartz. So to be clear on this, if Mayhem is played with Job in hand and DnA down then that player does not draw from Mayhem, correct?

As of this point, I would have to rule yes based on current rulings, but this may have to be taken under consideration.

So Job players get punished for keeping him in hand...

Kirk

In the same way that Wall of Protection players get punished if they're playing against Philistines.